Hirohito's Honor

[BBfanboy]

Katori and Kashima were training cruisers and had boilers (and maybe some guns and armour) removed (perhaps because of naval treaties). That allowed accomodations for more crew/trainees.

[PaxMondo]

And CL Kashii as well. Historically, they were "drafted" into the war ... of course they didn't do very much or very well, but that is history ...

But they were built hulls, similar size as Sendai or Kumi class, and that is how they will be treated. Maybe we add/update the engineering spaces, maybe we re-gun them, all TBD ....

Springsharp will be the deciding factor ....

[RangerJoe]

They had both steam engines and diesel engines hooked to the same shafts. They were used as HQ ships for various fleets and squadrons, including submarines. Considering their various uses, they could have some conversions including some rather quick ones such as something like an amphibious HQ ship. There was a fourth ship that was started but it was stopped.

"A fourth ship was planned, Kashihara (橿原) ordered to Mitsubishi at Yokohama. Laid down on 23 August 1941, construction was stopped on 6 November 1941, and she was later scrapped. . . . "

https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/japa ... s-1939.php

[PaxMondo]

They had both steam engines and diesel engines hooked to the same shafts. They were used as HQ ships for various fleets and squadrons, including submarines. Considering their various uses, they could have some conversions including some rather quick ones such as something like an amphibious HQ ship. There was a fourth ship that was started but it was stopped.

"A fourth ship was planned, Kashihara (橿原) ordered to Mitsubishi at Yokohama. Laid down on 23 August 1941, construction was stopped on 6 November 1941, and she was later scrapped. . . . "

https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/japa ... s-1939.php

Yeah, they were designed as training ships and outfitted accordingly. But, looking at them, they are 7000 ton hulls, welded, and basically they were Sendai type ship hulls as ready as the Sendai class to be something. IJN was just critically short of hulls, and yes these were unarmored (basically as were the Cl's), so no worse those.

Amphib HQ ships: I don't see the IJN getting there. It took the USN sometime to get there, and they had a focus on logistics and CnC. IJN didn't have that history nor focus. Maybe they could have, but my view here is that they didn't.

These old CL's (this encompasses the Katori's as well as all the rest of the 7000 tonners) will basically be "expendable" in the same sense that DD's are: they are escorts for capital ships; in battle their goal would be to take down a ship or two before they succumb to hits saving a capital ship. So, they either need to have bigger guns that have range and do damage OR they have to have Long Lance torpedoes. Yoshi will likely choose the bigger guns for these, even though that would mean a lot more yard time than equipping them with LL's. Alternatively, they could become CLAA's ... their lack of armor would be less of an issue in that role. Yoshi needs to think that through ....

[PaxMondo]

16Dec 41 Commander Yoshi Yashiba

He was starting to get a bit bleary eyed, but he still had another roll to review … DD’s.

IJN DD.jpg (54.67 KiB) Viewed 42 times

It may seem like a long list, but the reality as he well knew was that war was very hard on this class. He knew they needed a LOT more, but what did he have? Almost nothing. The stupid fools before him, only 2 Yugumo and 4 Minekaze in the docks with the first of the Akitzuki class going there shortly. That’s it. 6 DD’s between now and the end of June ’42 and nothing he can do will get more. ARGHHHH!!! They need to plan to lose at least 10/month, maybe more. That means by June, they could be 60, that is SIXTY DD’s short, half of the current fleet!!!

Well, 2 more Akitzuki are in pre-fab, that’s something. He needs to get a LOT of Yugumo’s moving. And, then thanks to Shigei, he needs to also get the Shimakaze class into production replacing the Yugumo.

Hold it, anything less than about 1000 tons cannot support Long Lance Torpedoes, that's more loss!! 26!! But at least they are able to use them as escorts .... all of those need to be re-equipped as E class escorts. He hated to do this, but he had to. DD's in the IJN had one key role: act as shields for capital ships. To do that effectively, they had to be a real threat to the opposing force, otherwise they would just be ignored. They only threat to an opposing force that a DD could have were torpedoes, and the IJN had the best, the Long Lance. So, an IJN DD had to be equipped with LL's. QED.

[PaxMondo]

They had both steam engines and diesel engines hooked to the same shafts. They were used as HQ ships for various fleets and squadrons, including submarines. Considering their various uses, they could have some conversions including some rather quick ones such as something like an amphibious HQ ship. There was a fourth ship that was started but it was stopped.

"A fourth ship was planned, Kashihara (橿原) ordered to Mitsubishi at Yokohama. Laid down on 23 August 1941, construction was stopped on 6 November 1941, and she was later scrapped. . . . "

https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/japa ... s-1939.php

Yeah, they were designed as training ships and outfitted accordingly. But, looking at them, they are 7000 ton hulls, welded, and basically they were Sendai type ship hulls as ready as the Sendai class to be something. IJN was just critically short of hulls, and yes these were unarmored (basically as were the Cl's), so no worse those.

Amphib HQ ships: I don't see the IJN getting there. It took the USN sometime to get there, and they had a focus on logistics and CnC. IJN didn't have that history nor focus. Maybe they could have, but my view here is that they didn't.

These old CL's (this encompasses the Katori's as well as all the rest of the 7000 tonners) will basically be "expendable" in the same sense that DD's are: they are escorts for capital ships; in battle their goal would be to take down a ship or two before they succumb to hits saving a capital ship.* So, they either need to have bigger guns that have range and do damage OR they have to have Long Lance torpedoes. Yoshi will likely choose the bigger guns for these, even though that would mean a lot more yard time than equipping them with LL's. Alternatively, they could become CLAA's ... their lack of armor would be less of an issue in that role. Yoshi needs to think that through ....

*This is a departure from the stated intent of CL's which is to take out DD's effectively. Unfortunately, to do so requires bigger guns AND armor to protect them from 5" guns. 7000 tons doesn't allow for that, you can get one or the other, but not both. To get both, you need 10,000 tons. They are still vulnerable to torpedoes, VERY hard to provide protection against those, hence the DD's job: eat the torpedoes intended for the capital ships.

**I am also having to account for the naval battle AI, which in general is quite good. There are a couple of holes in it, one of which is relevant here: the Naval AI does not allow for a firing retreat/pursuit. EX: IJN ships equipped with 155/60 guns with a range of +20000 yds vs USN DD's with 5" guns and range of about 10,000 yds. The USN ships can out run the IJN, but at 2 - 3 knts differential in calm seas, higher sea states much less, the IJN could engage them for quite some time, 2 knts difference would take 1 hour steaming to get out of range assuming they started at 10,000 yards. That's a lot of potential hits.

[PaxMondo]

16Dec 41 Commander Yoshi Yashiba

What next, oh yes, the E class: Shimushu (7) commissioned between 6/40 and 3/41. These are 1000 ton ocean going escorts. Their role: escort convoys, Only 7, we need 70. We are on the hunt for the tooling now. 77.7m long with a 9.1m beam and 3.05m draft. Their primary role is escort convoys and so need to be able to provide ASW and AA protection for their consorts. Taking the SRA will mean a LOT of convoys. It will be months before the first new ones arrive.

Then the SC sub chaser classes, these are to be used to prosecute subs within an area. They focus on ASW with minimal AA and surface action armaments.
CH-1 (3) 366 tons
CH-4 (9) 291 tons
Cha-1 (24) 99tons
CH-13 (11) 438tons
We will only pursue building the largest of these, the CH-13 class, going forward. These use twin diesel engines. Again, we need many more of these to keep our seaways and ports clear of enemy subs, at least 50, probably 100's.

PB’s – Patrol Boats. Converted Merchant ships as this is what the prior regime would allow to be built. Slow, usually over large, modestly armed and crewed. We have a lot of these:
Ansyu – (52) 2780 ton 14/12 kts
Kiso – (31) – 830 tons 11/9 kts
To’su- (34) 215 tons 12/10 kts
They will be used until they can be replaced by the appropriate class (E or SC), at which point they will converted to a useable merchant or support ship. Because of their size, they use an enormous amount of fuel in their role. There is one use for some of these: trip wire patrols. Long distance patrols to safeguard our waters out in the middle of the ocean. The Kiso is the likely candidate for this, large enough to do the job, but not overly large.

[RangerJoe]

Against the computer, I like to use the smaller SCs with the 8 weaker depth charges in ASW TFs patrolling in shallow water. Even they are smaller, they have a lot of ASW potential. They are cheap and can be effective. I do like to pair them with another ASW ship that has a larger main gun just in case the submarine decides to surface and fight.