MP's a division spends in a ZOC to ZOC move are not in line with what is stated in the manual

[PPetar]

Hello, I noticed some weird things when looking at MP expenditure of units making a ZOC to ZOC move, so I asked about this in the kulik discord which lead to me and Wiedrock investigating this a little bit and we found some confusing things.

In the manual we have the following rules

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First of all the minimum cost of 3 when entering a poor roads hex is a bit ambiguous - it doesn't say what exactly happens if the move costs more than 3MP. By doing some testing with a 68 morale Romanian tank division and a 89 morale Motorized division we see that if the move costs more than 3MP the MP cost differs for the divisions, probably using a rule Enter enemy hex (good or average roads) to give the cost of 10 MP for the 68 morale division (8 for swamp with poor roads + 2 for 51-80 morale division) and the cost of 9 MP for the 89 morale division (8 for swamp with poor roads + 1 for>80 morale division).

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This behavior is not in the manual and I'm not sure if it is intended by the devs.

It gets even more weird if we add ZOC's. In the example below the 89 morale division spends 15 MP to do a ZOC to ZOC move into a swamp hex which is +4 (from the ZOC to ZOC rule) +8 (for entering a swamp hex with poor roads) + 3? The 68 morale division pays 2 more so one of the possible solutions could be that it is counting +1 for >80 morale twice and +1 for leaving enemy ZOC for example (if true it is not clear from the manual that this applies here and also it doesn't really make much sense in the example above since you are not actually leaving the ZOC of the enemy mechanized division), and for the 68 morale division it is counting +2 for 51-80 morale division twice + 1 for leaving ZOC. Is this what is happening, and if yes, is this the intended behavior or are we speaking about a bug/multiple bugs? At least, if it is intended behavior, the manual should be updated, it is literally impossible to precisely understand this without doing some testing yourself.

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[Sammy5IsAlive]

Hello, I noticed some weird things when looking at MP expenditure of units making a ZOC to ZOC move, so I asked about this in the kulik discord which lead to me and Wiedrock investigating this a little bit and we found some confusing things.

I think this is the manual not being as clear as it could be.

My understanding of the rule for entering an enemy hex (no ZOC - ZOC and assuming clear weather) is that the cost is the basic terrain cost plus the amount given in the enter enemy hex (good or average roads) box. If the destination hex is poor roads then that figure is modified if necessary to be at least 3.

So entering a clear hex with average roads would cost 2MP for a >80 morale unit, 3MP for a 51-80 and 4MP for a <51 unit.
If that hex had poor roads the figures would be 3MP for both the >80 and 51-80 units and 4MP for the <51 unit.

Entering a swamp hex with good roads with a motorized unit costs 5MP for a >80 morale unit, 6MP for a 51-80 and 7MP for a <51 unit
Entering a swamp hex with poor roads with a motorized unit costs 9MP for a >80 morale, 10MP for a 51-80 and 11MP for a <51 unit.

In terms of ZOC - ZOC the cost is basic terrain cost, plus 4MP, plus 1MP for leaving a zone of control, plus the cost of entering enemy hex (even if the hex is actually friendly controlled), plus the cost of entering enemy hex again if the hex is actually enemy controlled. The worked example underneath the MP table confirms that with a ZOC-ZOC move the 1MP for leaving zone of control is applied even though you aren't actually leaving the overall zone of control.

So ZOC-ZOC into a friendly clear hex would be 7MP for a >80 unit; 8MP for a 51-80 unit and 9MP for a <51 unit.
ZOC - ZOC into an enemy clear hex would be 8MP for a >80; 10MP for a 51-80 and 12MP for a <51
ZOC - ZOC into a friendly swamp hex (good roads) would be 10MP for a >80; 11MP for a 51-80 and 12MP for a <51
ZOC - ZOC into an enemy swamp hex (poor roads) would 15MP for a >80, 17MP for a 51-80 and 19MP for a <51

These figures fit with your examples at least. I'd be interested to see if the principles carry forwards to any other examples you've looked at.

Assuming my understanding is correct I would try and clarify the manual by
a) removing the reference to good and average roads in the first "enter enemy hex" box
b) change "leave enemy ZOC" to "leave hex within enemy ZOC"

[PPetar]

Hello, I noticed some weird things when looking at MP expenditure of units making a ZOC to ZOC move, so I asked about this in the kulik discord which lead to me and Wiedrock investigating this a little bit and we found some confusing things.

I think this is the manual not being as clear as it could be.

My understanding of the rule for entering an enemy hex (no ZOC - ZOC and assuming clear weather) is that the cost is the basic terrain cost plus the amount given in the enter enemy hex (good or average roads) box. If the destination hex is poor roads then that figure is modified if necessary to be at least 3.

So entering a clear hex with average roads would cost 2MP for a >80 morale unit, 3MP for a 51-80 and 4MP for a <51 unit.
If that hex had poor roads the figures would be 3MP for both the >80 and 51-80 units and 4MP for the <51 unit.

Entering a swamp hex with good roads with a motorized unit costs 5MP for a >80 morale unit, 6MP for a 51-80 and 7MP for a <51 unit
Entering a swamp hex with poor roads with a motorized unit costs 9MP for a >80 morale, 10MP for a 51-80 and 11MP for a <51 unit.

In terms of ZOC - ZOC the cost is basic terrain cost, plus 4MP, plus 1MP for leaving a zone of control, plus the cost of entering enemy hex (even if the hex is actually friendly controlled), plus the cost of entering enemy hex again if the hex is actually enemy controlled. The worked example underneath the MP table confirms that with a ZOC-ZOC move the 1MP for leaving zone of control is applied even though you aren't actually leaving the overall zone of control.

So ZOC-ZOC into a friendly clear hex would be 7MP for a >80 unit; 8MP for a 51-80 unit and 9MP for a <51 unit.
ZOC - ZOC into an enemy clear hex would be 8MP for a >80; 10MP for a 51-80 and 12MP for a <51
ZOC - ZOC into a friendly swamp hex (good roads) would be 10MP for a >80; 11MP for a 51-80 and 12MP for a <51
ZOC - ZOC into an enemy swamp hex (poor roads) would 15MP for a >80, 17MP for a 51-80 and 19MP for a <51

These figures fit with your examples at least. I'd be interested to see if the principles carry forwards to any other examples you've looked at.

Assuming my understanding is correct I would try and clarify the manual by
a) removing the reference to good and average roads in the first "enter enemy hex" box
b) change "leave enemy ZOC" to "leave hex within enemy ZOC"

I didn't test every possible scenario but i do agree that this could be a solution. But what i also wanted to check is if this is how the devs intended this to work. This basically nullifies the effect of poor roads in every scenario except when a division is moving into clear terrain or woods (in addition to the special rules for swamps and heavy woods). So in your examples you would pay 8MP to move into an enemy clear hex with poor, good or average roads. Does operating in an area with poor roads hinder units movement when they are moving trough an area influenced by a nearby enemy unit? I think it should, but its up to the devs if they wanted to simulate that... I actually really like how they managed to make bad terrain and bad infrastructure influence the game, and its a massive improvement over WITE1, maybe this was also one more way in which it could impact the game but it remained hidden due to a bug. Of course this would be a boost to the Soviets in the early war and Axis in the late war, so any changes would also need to take that into consideration, but thats another topic.

Regarding leaving ZOC, in my second example they are literally not leaving any ZOC because the same mechanized division remains adjacent, but if your formulation (leave enemy ZOC -> leave hex with enemy ZOC) is used, along with the other change you proposed, it would be much more understandable what is going on. One more source of confusion could be if the minimum cost of 3 applies to the additional cost of entering an enemy hex or a total cost of unit movement. So maybe just add a footnote with "If a unit is entering enemy hex with poor roads total MP spent will be at least 3" and remove that entry from the list

[Sammy5IsAlive]

This basically nullifies the effect of poor roads in every scenario except when a division is moving into clear terrain or woods (in addition to the special rules for swamps and heavy woods).

The roads start making much more difference with poor weather and especially with heavy rain. Hexes with better roads accumulate ground moisture slower and so it takes longer for them to transition to light and then to heavy mud. An attacker receives less penalties from snow/mud when they are attacking from a hex with better roads. The difference between good and bad roads in terms of MPs in general (both for units and for supply trucks) increases significantly as the weather worsens.

[PPetar]

This basically nullifies the effect of poor roads in every scenario except when a division is moving into clear terrain or woods (in addition to the special rules for swamps and heavy woods).

The roads start making much more difference with poor weather and especially with heavy rain. Hexes with better roads accumulate ground moisture slower and so it takes longer for them to transition to light and then to heavy mud. An attacker receives less penalties from snow/mud when they are attacking from a hex with better roads. The difference between good and bad roads in terms of MPs in general (both for units and for supply trucks) increases significantly as the weather worsens.

True, forgot to mention that. Like i said i like overall how impactful the infrastructure is, this would just be something that would make it even more impactful.