New to the game - Basic Questions

[rkr1958]

Jose, Thanks!

I am playing with LOS optional. So, with the US still neutral and with CW CP supply in place; but, no US supply line is this a bug?

[Orm]

Jose, Thanks!

I am playing with LOS optional. So, with the US still neutral and with CW CP supply in place; but, no US supply line is this a bug?

No bug.

The CW CP is enough to carry the supply as long as no enemy blocks it (multiple states at war can mess it up). Neutral US, or not, makes no difference. This as friendly is enough as this is defined as being on the same side (Allied side in this case). Note that the clarification says that you can not provide supply while neutral. The reverse would also be mentioned in a clarification if it was not allowed. In my humble opinion, that is.

Cut from RAC:

SiF option 11: (Limited overseas supply) you can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH. [Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be
from an inactive major power, but they do not necessarily have to be from a country at war with the same countries
with which the units being supplied are at war. However, if there are any enemy blocking units (CV, SCS, or aircraft
with air-to-sea factors) in the sea area which are at war with the units being supplied, then the convoy, TRS, and
AMPH can not be used unless they too are at war with the blocking units - Dec. 23, 2007, Jan. 18, 2008, and June
26, 2008]

Friendly [a major power or minor country on your side]

[rkr1958]

Jose, Thanks!

I am playing with LOS optional. So, with the US still neutral and with CW CP supply in place; but, no US supply line is this a bug?

No bug.

The CW CP is enough to carry the supply as long as no enemy blocks it (multiple states at war can mess it up). Neutral US, or not, makes no difference. This as friendly is enough as this is defined as being on the same side (Allied side in this case). Note that the clarification says that you can not provide supply while neutral. The reverse would also be mentioned in a clarification if it was not allowed. In my humble opinion, that is.

Cut from RAC:

SiF option 11: (Limited overseas supply) you can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH. [Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be
from an inactive major power, but they do not necessarily have to be from a country at war with the same countries
with which the units being supplied are at war. However, if there are any enemy blocking units (CV, SCS, or aircraft
with air-to-sea factors) in the sea area which are at war with the units being supplied, then the convoy, TRS, and
AMPH can not be used unless they too are at war with the blocking units - Dec. 23, 2007, Jan. 18, 2008, and June
26, 2008]

Friendly [a major power or minor country on your side]

Orm, Thanks!

After 10+ years, I'm still learning the rules.

[rkr1958]

No bug.

The CW CP is enough to carry the supply as long as no enemy blocks it (multiple states at war can mess it up). Neutral US, or not, makes no difference. This as friendly is enough as this is defined as being on the same side (Allied side in this case). Note that the clarification says that you can not provide supply while neutral. The reverse would also be mentioned in a clarification if it was not allowed. In my humble opinion, that is.

Cut from RAC:

SiF option 11: (Limited overseas supply) you can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH. [Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be
from an inactive major power, but they do not necessarily have to be from a country at war with the same countries
with which the units being supplied are at war. However, if there are any enemy blocking units (CV, SCS, or aircraft
with air-to-sea factors) in the sea area which are at war with the units being supplied, then the convoy, TRS, and
AMPH can not be used unless they too are at war with the blocking units - Dec. 23, 2007, Jan. 18, 2008, and June
26, 2008]

Friendly [a major power or minor country on your side]

Orm, a point of clarification if I may. I went back and read the section you quoted from the Rules as Coded book (page 16). I know, reading the actual rule(s) is usually a last resort for me; but should be the first.

Anyway, a literal reading of the portion of the rules that state, "Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be from an inactive major power" - would not allow the US while neutral to use LOC to supply their own bases. Unless I'm missing something in the clarification? However; I do know for a fact that the US while neutral can, and is, supplying oversea bases in Hawaii, the Philippines & Samoa.

[Joseignacio]

,,,

Friendly [a major power or minor country on your side]

Orm, Thanks!

After 10+ years, I'm still learning the rules.

Yeah, and I still had to check the definitions of some concepts of MWIF that can make you crazy. (RAW)

As I told you, if you were using LOS it could be argued that active countries not co belligerant could supply those in the same side. It depended on Harry's interpretation on wht a side is, and friendly is, whether including the "will be" allied or the currently allied. That was my doubt.

For me all that are on a side were all that were fighting a common foe.

However, as I checked yesterday, Harry considers that even though they may be currently neutral they are still a side:

Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]

So, yes, the CW and the USA are in the same side and the active ones can supply each other, no matter what

[Joseignacio]

Jose, Thanks!

I am playing with LOS optional. So, with the US still neutral and with CW CP supply in place; but, no US supply line is this a bug?

No bug.

The CW CP is enough to carry the supply as long as no enemy blocks it (multiple states at war can mess it up). Neutral US, or not, makes no difference. This as friendly is enough as this is defined as being on the same side (Allied side in this case). Note that the clarification says that you can not provide supply while neutral. The reverse would also be mentioned in a clarification if it was not allowed. In my humble opinion, that is.

Cut from RAC:

SiF option 11: (Limited overseas supply) you can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH. [Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be
from an inactive major power, but they do not necessarily have to be from a country at war with the same countries
with which the units being supplied are at war. However, if there are any enemy blocking units (CV, SCS, or aircraft
with air-to-sea factors) in the sea area which are at war with the units being supplied, then the convoy, TRS, and
AMPH can not be used unless they too are at war with the blocking units - Dec. 23, 2007, Jan. 18, 2008, and June
26, 2008]

Friendly [a major power or minor country on your side]

So, Orm, if CW can carry the supply, it is indeed a bug because the US planes are OOS in Greenland. Or I am being too thick this morning?

[Joseignacio]

(---)

Orm, a point of clarification if I may. I went back and read the section you quoted from the Rules as Coded book (page 16). I know, reading the actual rule(s) is usually a last resort for me; but should be the first.

Anyway, a literal reading of the portion of the rules that state, "Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be from an inactive major power" - would not allow the US while neutral to use LOC to supply their own bases. Unless I'm missing something in the clarification? However; I do know for a fact that the US while neutral can, and is, supplying oversea bases in Hawaii, the Philippines & Samoa.

This is IMO a bad wording of the RAW plus the adaptation of the Clarifications 2009.

RAW says (only):

SiF option 11: (limited overseas supply) You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.

In the 2009 clarifications this was the pertinent question and answwer :

Q: Playing with Limited Overseas Supply, can a neutral CP / TRS / AMPH provide supply to friendly units of other major powers?
A: No. Date 18/01/2008
Reason:
2.4.2 Option 11: (limited overseas supply) You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.
13.6.1: Neutral major powers can only contribute to convoy chains with other major powers if the rules
specifically allow it (see 5.1.1 and 13.3.2, option 9).
9.1: A neutral major power can't co-operate with any other major power (see 18.)
18.2: Units that don't co-operate cannot: 1. stack in the same hex, at any time that stacking limit apply; or
2. transport each other's units; or
3. draw supply from a source controlled by the other;
or"

So, IMO, the wording of the RAC combining both should have been:

"Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be from a different inactive major power..."

[rkr1958]

(---)

Orm, a point of clarification if I may. I went back and read the section you quoted from the Rules as Coded book (page 16). I know, reading the actual rule(s) is usually a last resort for me; but should be the first.

Anyway, a literal reading of the portion of the rules that state, "Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be from an inactive major power" - would not allow the US while neutral to use LOC to supply their own bases. Unless I'm missing something in the clarification? However; I do know for a fact that the US while neutral can, and is, supplying oversea bases in Hawaii, the Philippines & Samoa.

This is IMO a bad wording of the RAW plus the adaptation of the Clarifications 2009.

RAW says (only):

SiF option 11: (limited overseas supply) You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.

In the 2009 clarifications this was the pertinent question and answwer :

Q: Playing with Limited Overseas Supply, can a neutral CP / TRS / AMPH provide supply to friendly units of other major powers?
A: No. Date 18/01/2008
Reason:
2.4.2 Option 11: (limited overseas supply) You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you
trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.
13.6.1: Neutral major powers can only contribute to convoy chains with other major powers if the rules
specifically allow it (see 5.1.1 and 13.3.2, option 9).
9.1: A neutral major power can't co-operate with any other major power (see 18.)
18.2: Units that don't co-operate cannot: 1. stack in the same hex, at any time that stacking limit apply; or
2. transport each other's units; or
3. draw supply from a source controlled by the other;
or"

So, IMO, the wording of the RAC combining both should have been:

"Clarification. The convoy, TRS, and AMPH cannot be from a different inactive major power..."

Jose, Thanks again!

[Joseignacio]

IMO, the CVPs shouldnt need to pay oil to reorg, if they are on a CV and the CV pays.

Am I wrong or is it a bug or a deviation?

[Orm]

No, the CVP pays oil to become reorganized regardless of the status of the CV.

Cut from RAC: 13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)
----
Each naval unit (CVPiF/SiF option 56: or carrier plane) you organize counts as half a unit and each convoy
point counts as a quarter of a unit.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, I know that

I understand that if a CVP is flipped and the CV no, you need to spend to reorg the CVP.

But if you bring the CV to port and you reorg the CV, shouldnt the CVP be reorg as well (because a CVP was originally inherent to the CV, the same counter)? I have always seen people do it this way in the board games.

I mean, if you reorg the ship and the CVP is loaded, it reorgs as well without paying for it. Or is it still a No? I admit I hate the Oil rule and have used it few times.

regards

[rkr1958]

I mean, if you reorg the ship and the CVP is loaded, it reorgs as well without paying for it. Or is it still a No? I admit I hate the Oil rule and have used it few times.

regards

It's still a NO. If both the CV and CVL are flipped you need to use oil to reorg both.

[Joseignacio]

Thanks, Ronnie

[rkr1958]

(1) Hey guys, I'm 99% sure this is a bug.

(2) But just wanted to confirm with you rule experts to get to 100% before posting a report in the beta tester forum.

(3) Zhukov just pushed into China & established FTC in that country.

(4) He and the mech corps stack below him are in supply.

(5) It's fine weather.

(6) Shouldn't the 4 units in the Yan Mtns, all of which are less than 4 hexes away from Zhukov also (still) be in supply?

(7) They all were before Zhukov advance into China.

999-Yan-Mtns-Supply-Bug.png (1.77 MiB) Viewed 325 times

[Orm]

Yes, it looks like a bug to me. Although the situation might be more complicated than you think. My guess is that the rule I cut in below and its implementation is the cause of the bug. And the bug might actually be that MWIF considers the hex Zhukov is as controlled by China thus preventing supply to be delivered (I can not see the flag in the hex properly), Although, if that is the case then I think Zhukov as well should be OOS.

Anyway. The hex should be Soviet controlled as I understand it and then there would be no supply limitations, so thus it is a bug.

Cut from RAC: 2.4.2 Tracing supply
....
Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
....
• for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR
is at war with Germany.

xxxx

Cut from RAC: 2.5 Control
....
[Clarifications. If the USSR invades China, taking hexes away from the Japanese, the USSR controls those hexes.
However, the hexes are still part of the Chinese home nation territory for purposes of the foreign troop commitment
rule, regardless of who controls them - Feb. 1, 1998.

[Joseignacio]

If that HQ has supply, the rest of the units, which are within range, clearly need to have as well, since there is not obstacle (they are adjacent and there is no mountain pass or ZOC hindering the supply).


It's clearly a bug IMO, and entering China or FTC shouldn't affect. I have experienced this in mountain regions in Caucassus (Germans invading from Turkey) and Persia, at least.

[Centuur]

It's a bug which has been around for a long time now...

[rkr1958]

Thanks all for confirming the bug!

FYI. The Soviet capture/liberate Chinese hex is showing as Chinese controlled.

999-Chinese-Hex-Control.png (711.4 KiB) Viewed 296 times

However; looks what happens when I change hex control from Chinese to Soviet.

999-Changed-Hex-Control.png (991.52 KiB) Viewed 295 times

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path:
....
• for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR
is at war with Germany.

xxxx

Cut from RAC: 2.5 Control
....
[Clarifications. If the USSR invades China, taking hexes away from the Japanese, the USSR controls those hexes.
However, the hexes are still part of the Chinese home nation territory for purposes of the foreign troop commitment
rule, regardless of who controls them - Feb. 1, 1998.

Looks like MWIF got the first part right but not the clarification part.

[Joseignacio]

Looks like MWIF got the first part right but not the clarification part.

Even if so, that shouldnt have caused the problem. Remember CW units in France (through FTC) can be supplied all the same, as long as they can trace to french RRs or any other way.

It is another MP (allied to them but not cooperating) where they stand on, as well. French hexes.

[Orm]

Looks like MWIF got the first part right but not the clarification part.

Even if so, that shouldnt have caused the problem. Remember CW units in France (through FTC) can be supplied all the same, as long as they can trace to french RRs or any other way.

It is another MP (allied to them but not cooperating) where they stand on, as well. French hexes.

The supply rules for CW and USSR are different until USSR is at war with Germany. See cut in rule below. This difference is what seems to cause this bug when tracing supply into China. USSR is forbidden to trace supply into China if MWIF thinks the Soviet unit is in a Chinese hex.

xxxx

Limits on supply paths
You can’t trace any supply path: for any Soviet unit, into a hex controlled by any other Allied major power (and vice versa) unless the USSR is at war with Germany.