Should biologics/false contacts always be added in scenarios that have submarines?

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've been inspired to make this thread based on a reply comment left by Kushan in a user scenario thread, and since I'd rather not fill up that thread with a side-debate, I thought I would start a discussion here for everyone else to give input:

In that thread, I said:

I firmly believe that any submarines in a scenario should mean including at least a few biologics.

Kushan replied:

I disagree. Any competent sonar operator is going to be able to identify a whale and filter it out. From a gameplay perspective, unless a scenario designer puts in the effort, it's blindingly obvious what is a submarine and what's a biologic.

I've always thought it made perfect sense to always include at least some biologics and/or false contacts in any scenario that contains submarines. While I do understand where Kushan is coming from, I feel that the variable that he is talking about doesn't always apply.

Here's my reasoning:

First, in small scale scenarios where the player only controls a handful of assets, or even just one ship or submarine, the commander would be more aware of new sonar contacts as they appear to the Sonar operators, and might have to make decisions on how to respond to these new contacts before they are classified.

Second, the wild nature of the underwater world means that there will not always be clear enough conditions for Sonar operators to always be quickly certain of what the contact is, especially in older scenarios (think CWDB settings).

Third, I simply think it's a little too easy from a gameplay perspective for the player of a scenario to simply be able to fire on any underwater contact, knowing it will be a submarine. Having uncertainty reinforces the importance of knowing what your are firing on, avoiding ordinance waste, and learning to interpret contacts from incomplete information (in this case, knowing when to spot a submarine from another sonar contact from it's speed).

I can concede that in large and very large scale scenarios, (except for dedicated ASW ones like "Opening Moves" of Northern Inferno), there can be value in just "assuming" biologics and false contacts being filtered out by the rank-and-file.

So, where do you stand on this?

Should any scenario that contains submarines also include at least a few biologics and/or false contacts?

[tylerblakebrandon]

I think historical events in the Falklands show biological and false contacts as valid scenario elements, especially for scenarios set in past decades. The RN expended prodigious amounts of ASW ordnance on not-actual-submarines.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I think historical events in the Falklands show biological and false contacts as valid scenario elements, especially for scenarios set in past decades. The RN expended prodigious amounts of ASW ordnance on not-actual-submarines.

That's an excellent point that I'd forgotten about when typing the OP. The Argentinians only had one operational submarine against the RN Task force, and the TF ASW forces expended ALOT of ordinance on what was largely false contacts and biologics. That sub, ARA San Luis, made a number of attacks and attempted attacks that all failed, but it got away unscathed every time.

[thewood1]

Well...it got a Penguin missile in the conning tower for its reward.

[BDukes]

Yes but I'd scale it based on how ASW oriented the scenario is. As far as the technical stuff behind whale detection etc. I agree with Kushan that if you play the game long enough, and the editor uses default tracks and speeds, they are identifiable. However, if they think a bit to improve verisimilitude and manage scale I think false contacts are worth the cycles. You could even blink real subs in out and as long as your fair and holding to the model something (resource management, taskings, and maybe blood pressure )

I use Lua to generate targets around a potential high value target. You can choose what types of targets you want to add and distances. You can even spawn in real submarines, contacts or whatever. You can use a any trigger with this which lets you scale as you wish. You could then do a periodic clean up of old units that are way out of range etc. to reduce game objects--although at this point I'm not sure it matters anymore. Game performance is generally pretty good.

--Adds a contact with ASuW mission on bearing with specified ship. Center ship is the unit you want to target.
-- Check if the Blue side's CVN unit exists
if ScenEdit_GetUnit({side='Blue', unitname='Boxer'}) ~= nil then

-- Adding Unit at random position 40-80 miles away
local TargetedUnit = ScenEdit_GetUnit({unitname="Boxer", side='Blue'})

-- Submarine types: Pakistani DJ Khalid, Pakistani S26, China XLUUV, Russia Akula 2
--local SubID = {720, 738, 733, 748}
local SubID = {187, 189, 58, 454}

-- Initialize variables
--Within 1-2 CZs
local ranRange = math.random(40, 80)
--Want a sub within 180 degrees of the bearing the target ship is traveling. Get min and max angle in variables and use as the random bearing.
local subMinAngle = TargetedUnit.heading - ranRange / 2
local subMaxAngle = TargetedUnit.heading + ranRange / 2
local subBearing = math.random(subMinAngle,subMaxAngle)
--local subBearing = math.random(0, 359)
local subranPos = {}
local randSubID = math.random(1, 4)

-- Repeat until a suitable underwater position is found
repeat
ranRange = math.random(30, 70)
subBearing = math.random(subMinAngle,subMaxAngle)
--subBearing = math.random(0, 359)
subranPos = World_GetPointFromBearing({lat=TargetedUnit.latitude, lon=TargetedUnit.longitude, distance=ranRange, bearing=subBearing})
until World_GetElevation({lat=subranPos.latitude, lon=subranPos.longitude}) < -50 ---this is where you set minimum depth of water you want to add the unit

-- Generate a unique name for the submarine
local subName = 'Sub-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)

--set chance of contact type
local contactsuborfcontact= math.random(1,6)
if contactsuborfcontact ==1 then

-- Add the submarine unit to the Red side
ScenEdit_AddUnit({
type='Submarine',
name=subName,
DBID=SubID[randSubID],
heading=subBearing,
side='Red',
lat=subranPos.latitude,
lon=subranPos.longitude,
autodetectable=false
})
-- Add Reference Points for Mission
-- Reference points will be centered on the unit
local CenterUnit = ScenEdit_GetUnit({unitname="Boxer", side='Blue'})
local subrpbearingNE = 45
local subrpbearingNW = 315
local subrpbearingSE = 135
local subrpbearingSW = 225
local subrprange = 80 -- range from reference point to CenterUnit
local subrpNE = World_GetPointFromBearing({lat=CenterUnit.latitude, lon=CenterUnit.longitude, distance=subrprange, bearing=subrpbearingNE})
local subrpNW = World_GetPointFromBearing({lat=CenterUnit.latitude, lon=CenterUnit.longitude, distance=subrprange, bearing=subrpbearingNW})
local subrpSE = World_GetPointFromBearing({lat=CenterUnit.latitude, lon=CenterUnit.longitude, distance=subrprange, bearing=subrpbearingSE})
local subrpSW = World_GetPointFromBearing({lat=CenterUnit.latitude, lon=CenterUnit.longitude, distance=subrprange, bearing=subrpbearingSW})

-- Unique Reference Point Names
local rpsubName1 = 'RP-SUB-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)
local rpsubName2 = 'RP-SUB-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)
local rpsubName3 = 'RP-SUB-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)
local rpsubName4 = 'RP-SUB-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)

-- Add reference points in
ScenEdit_AddReferencePoint({side="Red", name=rpsubName1, lat=subrpNE.latitude, lon=subrpNE.longitude, highlighted=true})
ScenEdit_AddReferencePoint({side="Red", name=rpsubName4, lat=subrpSW.latitude, lon=subrpSW.longitude, highlighted=true})
ScenEdit_AddReferencePoint({side="Red", name=rpsubName2, lat=subrpNW.latitude, lon=subrpNW.longitude, highlighted=true})
ScenEdit_AddReferencePoint({side="Red", name=rpsubName3, lat=subrpSE.latitude, lon=subrpSE.longitude, highlighted=true})

--Add Mission
local rpsubmissionname = 'RP-SUB-MISSION-' .. math.random(1000, 100000)
local rpsubmissionReferencePoints={rpsubName1, rpsubName3,rpsubName4,rpsubName2}
local rpsubmission = ScenEdit_AddMission ('Red', rpsubmissionname, 'Patrol', {type='naval',zone= rpsubmissionReferencePoints} )

--Update Mission

ScenEdit_SetMission('Red',rpsubmissionname, {CheckOPA=false,ProsecutionZone=rpsubmissionReferencePoints,TransitDepthSubmarine="-200", StationDepthSubmarine='-25'})
ScenEdit_SetEMCON('Mission',rpsubmissionname,'Radar=Passive')

--add sub to mission
ScenEdit_AssignUnitToMission( subName, rpsubmissionname )

else if contactsuborfcontact >=2 then
ScenEdit_AddUnit({
type='Submarine',
name=subName,
DBID=94,--False Contact
heading=subBearing,
side='Nature',
altitude = '-200',
lat=subranPos.latitude,
lon=subranPos.longitude,
autodetectable=false
})
ScenEdit_SetUnit({name=subName, side='Nature', moveTo=false, manualaltitude='-75'})

else
end
end

else
-- Handle the case where the CVN unit doesn't exist (e.g., log an error, perform alternative actions)
print("Unit does not exist on the Blue side.")
end

[SunlitZelkova]

For scenarios set in very recent times and with very modern equipment at least, I agree with Kushan. I find subs will often be able to correctly identify biologics in a matter of minutes, if not seconds, and always from a distance. Adding them thus doesn't really add anything to the gameplay.

When it comes to scenarios set further in the past, I'm not sure. I recently built one set in 1962. Some of the player-controlled vessels are ex-US Navy WWII frigates, so I added biologics on the assumption that the primitive sonar equipment would not be able to identify them well, and they would serve to complicate things for the player (me). I haven't gotten around to properly playing it due to a DB error with the fuel load of one of the other friendly vessels, so I'm not sure how dramatic the difference will be there... yet.

But turning away from pure gameplay concerns, I think it would be understandable to add biologics merely for ambience. Particularly in scenarios where the player is in control of only a single submarine, they could help make the scenario feel more lively, even if they don't actually change the gameplay or significantly impact the player's behavior.

[Mgellis]

My experience has been that biologics and false contacts are usually identified fairly quickly. Even so, I generally add a few to scenarios with submarines or an ASW element. The ocean is a noisy place and it makes sense there will usually be a little bit of background clutter.

Questions...

How much do false contacts sound like real contacts? Maybe it would make sense to add a few false contacts to the database that are close matches to specific types of submarines?

Also, do false contacts interfere with spotting real ones (in Command, that is)? If you have a Kilo, for example, right next to a big cloud of shrimp, could that make it harder to tell the Kilo was there? Or how far away it was?

[BDukes]

My experience has been that biologics and false contacts are usually identified fairly quickly. Even so, I generally add a few to scenarios with submarines or an ASW element. The ocean is a noisy place and it makes sense there will usually be a little bit of background clutter.

Questions...

How much do false contacts sound like real contacts? Maybe it would make sense to add a few false contacts to the database that are close matches to specific types of submarines?

Also, do false contacts interfere with spotting real ones (in Command, that is)? If you have a Kilo, for example, right next to a big cloud of shrimp, could that make it harder to tell the Kilo was there? Or how far away it was?

To follow up on Mark's second question, perhaps using a nature zone to reduce Db etc of anything in it might be a good way to model the shrimp, rocky rough coasts, etc. We don't have this yet do we?

Mike

[Dimitris]

This is something that will probably be added relatively soon.

[BeirutDude]

This is likely dependent upon the timeframe of the scenario. When I was doing Acoustic forecasting for P-3C's and S-3A/Bs in the 1985-1991 period biologics drove us absolutely nuts and if we had large areas of snapping shrimp it could drive the Figure of Merit Calculations way off and TACCOs/SENSOs would sometimes loose contacts they were so loud. My suspicion is modern sonar has much greater noise canceling at their frequencies, but I don't know that for a fact. I know my brand new Bose Noise Canceling headphones my wife bought me for my 65th birthday are so good even without music on I can't hear anything outside the headphones. These are my third set of Bose Quiet Comfort Headphones and they are far superior to anything I used in the 80s, and I suspect the sonar equipment is equally more advanced! Anytime I did anything with Subs/ASW I always added Wrecks, Biologics (and if I recall a magnetic anomalies - am I remembering that as an option? If not is should be! ) to the scenario based my my active duty experiences.