vichy joining allies shortly after france surrender

[bfcj]

I just finished my first PBEM game. I played the axis, and was shocked to see "Vichy is pressured to join the Allies" the turn after France surrendered (July '40), then Vichy joining the allies the following turn. How is that possible? I tried to reproduce it offline with diplomacy, investing all of UK's chits, and after several turns got nothing more than an 8% shift to the allies. Can anyone shed light on this for me?

[sPzAbt653]

I don't see anything like 'Vichy is pressured to join the Allies' in the scripts that I think pertain to this. Could you maybe provide some more details ?

[bfcj]

I think the message was "Vichy (maybe Vichy France or Vichy government) comes under increasing pressure to join the allies", but I'm not certain. I didn't really give it much attention. I was just shocked when they did.

[bfcj]

Actually, I see it here:

#POPUP= Pressure Grows On The Vichy Authorities To Join The Allies

in the file mobilization_2.txt

[sPzAbt653]

Thanks!

{
#NAME= Pressure Grows On The Vichy Authorities To Join The Allies (Vichy France->Allies)
#POPUP= Pressure Grows On The Vichy Authorities To Join The Allies
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 2
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#COUNTRY_ID= 118
#TRIGGER= 50
#DATE= 1939/09/01
;15-25% mobilization increase towards Allies
#MOBILIZATION= [15,25] [2]
; Set variable conditions:
; 1st Line - France politically aligned with Allies and not surrendered
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 40 [2] [100] [0]
; dummy condition position
#CONDITION_POSITION= 0,0 [0,0] [0,0] [0] [0]
}

Well, this one stumps me, I don't recall ever seeing it fire as early as you have in any of my games , because it only has a 50% chance of happening [every turn] only if Vichy is in place AND France is NOT surrendered. How could this happen in your game ?

[PvtBenjamin]

I haven't either. Did the UK support Free French?

[bfcj]

I don't recall if the UK supported the Free French or Vichy. Sounds like it was intended to happen after the allies liberated France. Maybe just a fluke. Of course it would happen to me during my first PBEM game. Things were already looking a little rough, that was the icing on the cake.

[PvtBenjamin]

I've never not accepted Free French. The manual basically says if you don't you should seek help. I was wondering if that could be the cause. sPz or Taxman will know.

[bfcj]

I tried loading a saved local game and trying it at the same point. It didn't seem to have any effect. However, he did land an army onto Bordeaux the previous turn (the same turn France surrendered) so I wondered if it might have confused the game engine into thinking that the allies had invaded and France had been liberated.

[sPzAbt653]

Exactly, the event might need another trigger to be added, something like 'USA is in 100%'. I'm sure when Bill see's this he will figure something out.

AND, another opportunity for me to say 'another good reason not to play with humans' !!

[BillRunacre]

Hi bfcj

In your other thread you mentioned that the British landed at Bordeaux.

Could it be the case that before France surrendered its capital moved from Paris to Bordeaux, and that the British have therefore liberated France by taking Bordeaux?

This is the only logical explanation I can think of, so I hope it was the case! [:)]

Bill

[bfcj]

Yes as a matter of fact that did happen. Not sure why I didn't remember that when reporting the issue, as I'd never seen that happen before when playing against the AI.

Thanks,
Ben.

[room]

I had this happen to me as well (thought only in 41 and I was the british) after a landing in Bordeaux.

The liberation of France causes other problems such as your free french forces lose any upgrades...

Should't France come back with british thec?

[sPzAbt653]

Hi Bill - I'm probably wrong here, but I don't really think that capturing Bordeaux should liberate France, nor should capturing Kuybyshev liberate Russia. The original location of the capital should be the only one that triggers liberation.

For an odder situation, I've had the UK move the capital to Halifax, then later the UK surrenders because of other bad things happening to it, then the US moves into Halifax and liberates the UK. Doesn't seem right, to me.

On a different thing, I've had Partisans liberate Russia by occupying Kuybushev. Can Partisans really liberate a country, or is that something I have in 653N only [I have not tested it in the stock campaign yet, because I don't know if it is intended or not].

[bfcj]

Just so I'm clear, is that a valid (ie, intended) result? If so, it seems really hard to defend against. I'd only just taken Paris, and had not had time to march Forces to Bordeaux.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Hi Bill - I'm probably wrong here, but I don't really think that capturing Bordeaux should liberate France, nor should capturing Kuybyshev liberate Russia. The original location of the capital should be the only one that triggers liberation.

For an odder situation, I've had the UK move the capital to Halifax, then later the UK surrenders because of other bad things happening to it, then the US moves into Halifax and liberates the UK. Doesn't seem right, to me.

I know what you mean, the thing is that the last capital before the surrender is the one that counts in the engine.

To not have it so could also seem wrong at times, e.g. a US landing in the UK liberates Manchester, but the UK remains surrendered because London is still in Axis hands.

It perhaps doesn't matter a great deal, as if only Manchester or, as in your example of Halifax, are liberated, then the potential for the liberated Major to act is very limited until or unless further advances are made to liberate more resources and boost income up to a good level.

On a different thing, I've had Partisans liberate Russia by occupying Kuybushev. Can Partisans really liberate a country, or is that something I have in 653N only [I have not tested it in the stock campaign yet, because I don't know if it is intended or not].

Partisans can certainly liberate a country, it's not just your doing. [:)]

[dwrobel]

I had this sort of thing, but even worse/weirder, happen in a game as the Allies vs the AI.

Summer 1940, Paris falls, capital moves to Bordeaux, Italy is in the war. My BEF is running SW from Paris for the coast, closing in on Bordeaux to try to "Dunkirk" out. France then surrenders the next turn, before I make Bordeaux. The following turn BEF captures Bordeaux, thus liberating France. The next turn, I get the event that moves Vichy toward the Allies. I manage to pull I think one of the BEF units out of Bordeaux, as I have to wait for the port to rebuild after the capture, and the rest of the BEF is wiped out by the advancing Panzers.

Then it gets really weird - ITALY declares war on Vichy, presumably because it leans slightly Allied after the event? I don't know for sure, because I didn't think the event would be important, and I didn't look at the diplomacy. Vichy signs up as a British Minor for the Allies. The problem is that after wiping out the BEF, the Germans surround Vichy and Marseilles, but don't attack the two units Vichy spawned. The Italians try, and don't succeed for a while.

The net impact was to delay Barbarossa - the Germans surrounded Vichy and Marseilles three units deep for like a year - and the Axis only moved away when the Soviets finally mobilized and declared war on Germany in like Sep or Oct of '41.

So I think there are two issues here - one is that liberation of just fallen France in 1940 triggers the Vichy move toward the allies, which may or may not be what is intended or needed, but the other is that Italian DOW against Vichy seemed to break the AI - the Germans I think should have finished off the two units and moved on ... not sure if this description allows you enough detail without a saved game file to track down why, but it is very curious. My guess is that something about Vichy joining the Allies after the Italian DOW incorrectly sets relations between Germany and Vichy somehow - I have seen really weird stuff like this in the 1938 Mod, which has a bunch of problematic scripting issues that I don't understand the game engine well enough to troubleshoot.

Hope this helps -

[klschult]

Somewhat similar issues.

Allies against the AI.
August 42, US lands at Bayonne to prevent German reinforcements to Spain.
On the German turn, all French territory not physically occupied by German units becomes Allied territory.
The ports, sitting next to German units, become Allied ports and I can land units at them. (If only I had prepared.)
France does not appear as a Nation and does not have any build, research or diplomacy options.
No change to Vichy.

I'm pretty sure I've done a similar move before and this didn't happen.
The only difference I can think of is that Denmark had been liberated by the French, and occupied by the British.
So France still had Resource Points and could build the Danish unit.
Which was another odd thing, Denmark being Allied but contributing only to its (or the French) resource pool.

I'm playing the Allies, so its not like I'm objecting ...

But perplexed.

I'll do a couple of experiments and let you know if the saved game repeats the event and what happens during the German move.

[klschult]

More information:
Americans take Bayonne on July 12, 1942, (and Portugal.)
Spain then joins the Axis
Americans cross into Spain on July 26, taking Pamploma.
Germans take over Italy prior to August 9.
On August 9 France rejoins the Allies,
with all French territory not occupied by Germns becoming Allied

I restarted at the end of the July 12th turn.
France did not convert on July 26, just like before.
I didn't move anything and went immediately to the next turn.
France did not convert.

I restarted the game at the end of the July 26 turn.
France did convert between July 26 and August 9
No "announcement" concerning the conversion was made by the AI between turns.

German Turn they act as expected, with the garrison in France occupying cities they could get to.
France (Denmark) received 30 production points.
This is more than occupied Denmark and Bayonne alone generate, (Radnice and Aalborg are German occupied),
but looks accurate if you include French towns under French contol.
"France has 219 MPP but can only build Danish units,
Is not on the diplomacy track or on the Research track.

Note: I don't really care. This is a pretty rare event. I'm curious, wanted to see if anybody else had seen it happen, and thought the designers would want to know.

[BillRunacre]

Somewhat similar issues.

Allies against the AI.
August 42, US lands at Bayonne to prevent German reinforcements to Spain.
On the German turn, all French territory not physically occupied by German units becomes Allied territory.
The ports, sitting next to German units, become Allied ports and I can land units at them. (If only I had prepared.)
France does not appear as a Nation and does not have any build, research or diplomacy options.
No change to Vichy.

I'm pretty sure I've done a similar move before and this didn't happen.
The only difference I can think of is that Denmark had been liberated by the French, and occupied by the British.
So France still had Resource Points and could build the Danish unit.
Which was another odd thing, Denmark being Allied but contributing only to its (or the French) resource pool.

I'm playing the Allies, so its not like I'm objecting ...

But perplexed.

I'll do a couple of experiments and let you know if the saved game repeats the event and what happens during the German move.

This is all a bit confusing, and it sounds as though something has caused France to surrender, as that is the only explanation for French territory suddenly switching to Allied control in the way you describe.

Which campaign are you playing?