Ship's Offensive ECM Button

[DWReese]

Question:

Some ships have Offensive ECM capabilities. Most don't.

If you activate the button to turn on the Offensive ECM on a ship, does that do anything......
---to keep the approaching enemy planes from seeing the activating ship?
---to reduce the success of the missile being fired at the activating ship?

Additionally, does a ship's OECM help with defense, or is it only on a ship to hopefully keep and enemy ship from seeing missiles fired by the ship that is activating the OECM?

[Knightpawn]

1. For sure it gives away the position of the ship because the enemy can detect the OEMC source and shoot at you. I have learnt this the hard way
2. I guess (and hope so) it makes harder for enemy radars to pin the position of approaching aircrafts or missiles - I have not tested it. But, if not what is their purpose after all?
3. Not sure if the OECM on has also defensive function (i.e. spoofing incoming missiles), or if this is and separate independent system. I turn them on based on a "Pascal's wager" logic: It it does not work defensively, it is what it is; but if it works I want it on.

Happy to be corrected.

[Nikel]

From the manual.

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Example of defensive EW in a ship:

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Defensive jammer (AN/SLQ-32(V)4 [ECM]; Tech: Late 1980S) on USS Dwight D. Eisenhower is attempting to spoof sensor: Active Radar Seeker (Tech: Late 2010S)(Of: CSS-5 Mod 5 [DF-21D, 600kg Penetrator] RV #9210). Final probability: 5%. Result: 53 - FAILURE

However offensive seems to be more rare, at least searching the logs here.

There are OECM contacts.

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[United States-Australia] Contact: BOGEY #1371 has been type-classified as: OECM (Classification by: USS Sante Fe [Sensor: AN/BLQ-10(V)2] at Estimated 129 nm)

[Nikel]

An example to see the differences locating a ship with OECM turned on and off.

Spruance class warship, with jammer AN/SLQ-32 OECM vs Tu-142A Bear F.

In the first screenshot is turned off and is able to locate the ship with precision.

While when is turned on, the Tupolev is jammed and the location is not as precise.

This is not printed in the log.

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OECM ON.png (434.24 KiB) Viewed 815 times

[Nikel]

An example of successful jamming vs a Tu-22M launching 2 AS-4 Kitchen missiles.

The Spruance is completely unarmed, just the Offensive ECM is active.

Note that in this particular case there is a 20% for the jamming to be successful for each missile. I had to repeat the test several times, because most of them the ship was sunk.

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[DWReese]

Nikel,

I understand what you are saying, yet I am still a little confused.

When a ship with OECM capabilities is fired upon by an enemy, the ship goes into defensive mode. The missiles are already coming. You will notice that the program will switch on the ECM button and any and all jammers, etc. will be active. Defensively, I have seen the reductions. I have never seen a reduction listed based on the attack being degraded due to having an OECM jammer turned on.

I assume that your 20 percent report was based on your testing, but was that done by reading the reports, or just tallying the results?

To me, the OECM does nothing, other than to give away your position. In the example above, it doesn't really matter since they have already fired on you, so they obviously KNOW where you are.

So, I'm still confused as to what OECM on a ship is actually used for. DECM I completely understand. If OECM on a ship worked like it does on attacking planes with an OECM escort, then I could understand that. Certainly having a strike with a Growler behind it works great. So, using that same principle, you would think that a Task Group could fire at a target, and then have OECM SHIPS go active to blind the enemy of the presence of the incoming attack, just like the Growler. But, I have never seen that work, or know if that is what it is supposed to do.

In other words, why are OECM pods placed on ships?

[Nikel]

The 20% is printed in the log, it is in the screenshot.

What happens is what is explained in the manual. Also checked in the updated version and has not changed.

In this particular example, the russian side does not know where the Spruance is, not exactly as you see in the video, that is the result of the OECM.

I ordered to fire nevertheless, then the radar seekers of the missiles try to find her, but were jammed successfully.

I will try to recreate the example you comment. But the ship OECM is not as focused, and the ships move slower.

[DWReese]

Nikel,

Yes, I know that the 20 percent is listed in the weapon resolution screen. I can see that with no problem. I knew that that is what you were saying. My point was that I have NEVER seen an OECM reduction listed, similar to the DECM reduction, listed there. I've never seen it listed as being an OECM 20 percent reduction.

Again, the OECM works great on plane groups protected by a Growler. It masks the attack quite well. But, I'm not sure that ships just run around with their OECM pods active. It appears that the program only turns them on when the ship is under attack, and at that point it is too late as the enemy already knows your position. In your Spruance example, you are turning it on ahead of time. Does that actually happen?

We should try to place two ship groups around 100 miles apart, then have one group fire SSMs at the other, and then turn on the OECM pods on the firing ships and then switch sides to see if the ships under attack can see the incoming missiles because of the OECM pod being active. This would act like the Growler does.

[Nikel]

It is said in the manual that OECM does not affect to the calculations like DECM.

Currently, perhaps it is a feature that devs may add in the future.

I had it activated in the example because the Spruance was completely disarmed.

Asked the AI for Modern historical examples of effective use of OECM mounted on warships, though some of these are in fact defensive.

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[DWReese]

It is said in the manual that OECM does not affect to the calculations like DECM.

So, I would gather that (at the present time) OECM really does nothing at all to affect the calculations, and if a missile has been fired at you, then it's already too late for OECM to be of any benefit at all.

Furthermore, as you pointed out, activating a OECM BEFORE you are attacked, results in your existence being revealed, which is actually counter-productive.

So, we've established that the ship-born OECM is not yet programmed to make alterations to the calculations in the game, and in real life it begs the question, what would be the purpose of a ship-born OECM? I understand the DECM, and perhaps the OECM is merely really just the same thing, but it would seem that if some pods are designated as OECM and some are designated as DECM that they are designed to do something different, otherwise they would have the same name.

So, I return to my original question, what is the purpose of a ship-born OECM in real life, and when would it realistically be used?

[tylerblakebrandon]

It is said in the manual that OECM does not affect to the calculations like DECM.

So, I would gather that (at the present time) OECM really does nothing at all to affect the calculations, and if a missile has been fired at you, then it's already too late for OECM to be of any benefit at all.

Furthermore, as you pointed out, activating a OECM BEFORE you are attacked, results in your existence being revealed, which is actually counter-productive.

So, we've established that the ship-born OECM is not yet programmed to make alterations to the calculations in the game, and in real life it begs the question, what would be the purpose of a ship-born OECM? I understand the DECM, and perhaps the OECM is merely really just the same thing, but it would seem that if some pods are designated as OECM and some are designated as DECM that they are designed to do something different, otherwise they would have the same name.

So, I return to my original question, what is the purpose of a ship-born OECM in real life, and when would it realistically be used?

Ship based OECM is valuable in a restricted area where your presence cannot be hidden. Therefore it's best to obscure your position via OECM. They will find you regardless so rather than let them get a positive fix at range use OECM to create an area of uncertainty that will require them to close the distance to burn through which may bring them into your WEZ before they get a fix giving you the chance to the kill first on the recon platform.

In short, you can't hide so why try? Make your exact position as uncertain as possible.

[BDukes]

You can certainly jam search radars. Radar band and search band need be the same.

The calculations show it'll try and spoof the active seeker. Also if the weapons has a secondary seeker type (passive, home on jam etc). Then jamming one doesn't necessarily help.

If you have comms jammer and there is a drone with datalink guidance you can jam the comms. Not sure if I've seen an aircraft go out of comms with a ship jammer. Or a weapons datalink break.

I think tbb summarized the strategy well. Just wait until persistent satellite sensing and AI really takes off. You will likely be seen so EW techniques across a wider spectrum will be necessary.

M

[Nikel]

Added to the Spruance the Comms jammer present in the Growler, AN/USQ-113.

The Bear F becomes Out of Comms intermittently.

However a Shahed drone (not displayed in the video) was not affected.

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[DWReese]

Thanks for all of the replies.

Example: If a US ship were sailing in the South China Sea (not a small body of water) and the Chinese were launching missiles at it from planes flying 60 miles away, then I can see no reason why the ship would have its OECM turned on if it didn't know that the Chinese were coming in the first place. From what I have experienced, if the enemy fires on the target ship, then it's too late for the missile to be affected by the OECM because it only affects locating the target. After the missiles are fired, I have not seen OECM have any effect on any incoming missiles. Does anyone have an example that refutes this?

Since jamming can only be seen as "jam" or "jammed", the actual effects (in numerical terms) aren't present. Other than knowing that the unit is suffering from some level (large or small), there is no way to actually know what the degree of "jamming" that it is experiencing. I have had plenty of units that have displayed either a "jam" or a "Jammed" and still were hit as if there was no effect at all.

The only time that there is a definable effect is if you can actually see the percentage reduction through the messages. Otherwise, it is impossible to know to what extent we are dealing with. If anyone knows of another way to do it, please let me know.

I have played around with DECM and OECM for years, and I was hoping that the recent changes with communication disruption and jamming would make some significant changes to game play. Perhaps they do, and I just don't know how to interpret it, or I don't know how to see it. Again, if someone does know, please let me know.

Thanks again for all of the responses.

[Nikel]

Another video. OECM off in the Spruance. Tu-22M not jammed with radars on, will detect the warship with precision and fast.

After the missiles are launched, the Spruance will turn them on in defense mode jamming the russian AC and the missiles. In this case was successful, it is the same probability, 20%.

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[DWReese]

Okay, I believe that I understand it now.

The confusion for me came from the fact that there is a difference of two types of units, even though there are all loosely grouped as OECM.

For example, the Chinese jammer #7271 is listed as an Offensive (OECM) and Defensive (DECM) and would apply a reduction of -20 percent, if the attacking unit was an I or J.

The Chinese jammer unit #7276 is listed only as an Offensive (OECM) and does not apply any reduction, even though the I and J are both listed.

So, in order to get the reduction applied, it will have to be DEFENSIVE, and it would have to be I or J range.

What was confusing was the ECM Button turns on everything when under attack, and if it only has an OECM (no defense), then it will not show up in the detailed messaging.

To take this one step further, if the radar frequency was something other than I and J, then it would not apply at all. Is that correct?

[Swant]

Another video. OECM off in the Spruance. Tu-22M not jammed with radars on, will detect the warship with precision and fast.

After the missiles are launched, the Spruance will turn them on in defense mode jamming the russian AC and the missiles. In this case was successful, it is the same probability, 20%.



Off.gif

But in this example the ship turns on its OECM, thats why it say Jamming next to the missiles. But this has nothing to do with the 20% DECM protection. It will get that even if the OECM is forced off.

[Nikel]

Okay, I believe that I understand it now.

The confusion for me came from the fact that there is a difference of two types of units, even though there are all loosely grouped as OECM.

For example, the Chinese jammer #7271 is listed as an Offensive (OECM) and Defensive (DECM) and would apply a reduction of -20 percent, if the attacking unit was an I or J.

The Chinese jammer unit #7276 is listed only as an Offensive (OECM) and does not apply any reduction, even though the I and J are both listed.

So, in order to get the reduction applied, it will have to be DEFENSIVE, and it would have to be I or J range.

What was confusing was the ECM Button turns on everything when under attack, and if it only has an OECM (no defense), then it will not show up in the detailed messaging.

To take this one step further, if the radar frequency was something other than I and J, then it would not apply at all. Is that correct?

I do not know

But in this example the ship turns on its OECM, thats why it say Jamming next to the missiles. But this has nothing to do with the 20% DECM protection. It will get that even if the OECM is forced off.

This sensor is both OECM and DECM at the same time.

It is called defensive when is jamming the missiles that are attacking you.

Offensive when you are jamming the radars of the AC.

Or so I understand.


I am getting the sensors fuse error now. Perhaps it is better to test this when it is fixed.

[Swant]

Here is an example where OECM from ships was usefull in attack.
Every amraam got jammed and failed to lock on (after going pitbull) to incoming russian anti ship missiles because of OECM

[Swant]

Okay, I believe that I understand it now.

But in this example the ship turns on its OECM, thats why it say Jamming next to the missiles. But this has nothing to do with the 20% DECM protection. It will get that even if the OECM is forced off.

This sensor is both OECM and DECM at the same time.

It is called defensive when is jamming the missiles that are attacking you.

Offensive when you are jamming the radars of the AC.

Or so I understand.


I am getting the sensors fuse error now. Perhaps it is better to test this when it is fixed.

Yes its just that you will always get the 20% even if you force the jammer off. The ship doesn't "turn them on in defensive mode" its always on.
In your example the ship does turn on the OECM but it would have gotten the 20% either way