Is cheating possible in PBEM?

[jeffs]

[:@]
I have started a scenario with somebody (to my knowledge they do not post here) and
a very interesting and troublesome development has quickly arisen..
I am the US side and he sends me both the combat save and combat report.
Well 1 turn ago, there were some strange things (in the combat save there was no torpedo attack (my sub vs AP), but in the combat report there was an attack). However, given the small nature of the differences, I ignored it...However, this turn, the differences are too large to ignore.
A. In the combat save, I sunk 4 DDs...Combat report only 2....
B In the combat save IJN launches a 43 plane Val strike vs USN carriers..However, with no fighter cover it loses 26 planes (with 2 250lb bombs on the Lex)..In the combat report (and present saved scenario situation) this attack never occured....

Clearly, the combat report, as it is, is much, much better for the IJN (the Lex was on fire but not heavily damaged) than the combat save....
Is there a legit explanation, or has a cheat been caught red handed?

I do not wish to make accusations without enough evidence/knowledge to so. Thanks for any help in this
[:-]

[Deathtreader]

Hi,

Just a quick note to allay your concern .........

I don't think he's cheating. I've been following this forum since it started (just post very rarely) and this variation in results has been discussed maaany times. It has something to do with the sequence in which PBEM functions are carried out by the players. There are scads of threads on this -- conduct a search for the details on the fix. [:)]

Rob.

[jeffs]

Thanks..again the issue was not a small variation...

It was a major (relatively failed) attack completely disappeared....

I did get a hold of him...He claimed his computer crashed in the middle of the
move...
I understand that maybe I am over reacting...It just seems way too convenient...
But clearly it seems that weird stuff happens.. Thanks.

[mogami]

Hi, If his computer crashed in middle of turn you would get a whole new combat report and replay. Because the random numbers used in the game are generated on turn 1 for the entire game redoing turns should produce turns very much alike (redoing a bad turn should still produce a bad turn)
The combat report is generated by the Japanese when they run the turn. It is acurate (within FOW) The replay however can be different for several known reasons. (We call this being out of synch) Players are using different versions of game. Players have different machines (a player with low resources available can create weird results) The Japanese players turn is always the one the allied player will have on map at the start of the turn. So the combat.txt sent by Japanese player is always more accurate then the combat replay if you are out of synch.
Running the replay will generate a combat.txt that reflects what the Allied player sees during the replay.

The only known way to cheat in PBEM requires your opponent to have your password. When you send a turn opponent runs turns and on your turn peeks. Then he goes back and enters orders. Without your password he cannot run advance turns because he cannot load game past where you enter orders.
Some of the variations are quite large. (CV reported sunk in replay not even hit in actual game etc.) Most often the ones I hate are where it appears my TF escapes damage but then I find on my turn it has been hammered.
The most accurate way to assess previous turns air loss is to go to the intell screen and look. Hopefully the out of synch problem can be fixed in WITP and then the cure applied back to UV. Personally I think it has something to do with the save game protection routine because if I recall correctly we did not have it before the PBEM file save was changed to prevent persons with hex editors stealing passwords. (If I don't trust my opponent I'm not going to play him. I often give my password to opponents who wish to rerun a series of turns to see what else they might have done while we continue playing the game. Also to redo turns effected by known bugs. (fix FT foulups by going back a few turns before they occured)

[Knaust]

uhmmm...Jeffs...try what I suggested in my post Is pbem really secure? (26/02/04)...the UV community doesn't agree on that, but still I have some doubts..

[DoomedMantis]

I have seen some really wild results from PBEM games, and usually the replay that the Japs see and your replay can be almost completely different. What I usually request on big turns is a copy of the text file, as this will show you what the Japs saw

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jeffs

[:@]
I have started a scenario with somebody (to my knowledge they do not post here) and
a very interesting and troublesome development has quickly arisen..
I am the US side and he sends me both the combat save and combat report.
Well 1 turn ago, there were some strange things (in the combat save there was no torpedo attack (my sub vs AP), but in the combat report there was an attack). However, given the small nature of the differences, I ignored it...However, this turn, the differences are too large to ignore.
A. In the combat save, I sunk 4 DDs...Combat report only 2....
B In the combat save IJN launches a 43 plane Val strike vs USN carriers..However, with no fighter cover it loses 26 planes (with 2 250lb bombs on the Lex)..In the combat report (and present saved scenario situation) this attack never occured....

Clearly, the combat report, as it is, is much, much better for the IJN (the Lex was on fire but not heavily damaged) than the combat save....
Is there a legit explanation, or has a cheat been caught red handed?

I do not wish to make accusations without enough evidence/knowledge to so. Thanks for any help in this
[:-]

I think that cheating is almost impossible unless your opponent doesn't have your PBEM password (to open your files and sees your disposition).

What you see is old bug/problem/issue with only "Combat Replay" inconsistencies.

In other words - what matters is the Japanese player (i.e. player #1) replay - that replay is what creates the actual after turn.


Therefore experienced PBEM players do the following:

In case the "Combat Replay" is misrepresented on Allied player's PC (i.e. player #2) the Japanese player additionally sends his "Combat Report" textual file.



Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. Long ago there was a bug that "skilful" Japanese player (i.e. player #1) could use. If he/she was unsatisfied with turn result he/she was able to repeat it until more satisfactory results occur. Ever since this bug was fixed this is no longer the case and almost everything is OK (only sometimes "Combat Replay" differs).

[jeffs]

Thanks for clearing this up...

[Knaust]

what I am trying to say is that I simulated a pbem game in my computer...and I saw results on both sides, i.e. I saw result as Japanese and result as Allied, so they are the true results for both sides, no fow indeed...well...they were different replaying the game starting with the same Allied file...I play on version 2.30...and anyone can recreate a pbem game on his computer....maybe I'm missing something...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: jeffs

Thanks for clearing this up...

It was no problem at all...


Leo "Apollo11"

[joliverlay]

I tend to think there is actually a way to cheat. I posted some time ago about very large differences between the text file and the combat save that always seemed to favor the Japanese player. I also had some problems with task forces "warping" across the map. Anyway, when I asked my opponent to provide save game files and passwords to the UV tester (was it U2?, cant remember) my opponent quit. I was then contacted by another player who read my post asking for the name of my opponent. He had the same experience against the very same opponent. We both had the same problem with this player and no others. In my other 4 PMBs I had seen occassional differences, and small problems, but they were so different. Anyway there certinly seemed to be something very odd about each of our PBM games with a common opponent but not others, and he would not help solve the problem. Instead he quit our games.

I realize that none of this proves that anybody was cheating, or that it is possible. But it does certinly look very strange.

[joliverlay]

Regarding my last post. I can't remember who from the UV staff was helping try to sort out this problem with combat reports. Anyway, could you kindly identify yourself as the expert on this and let us know what you found on this matter if anything?

Thanks

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

I have seen some really wild results from PBEM games, and usually the replay that the Japs see and your replay can be almost completely different. What I usually request on big turns is a copy of the text file, as this will show you what the Japs saw

Yep, always read send the text report; it is always right. Only bother watching the replay animation if you like the pretty pictures and explosions. Actually, there is a reason for the allied player to watch the replay; since it is sometimes different from "Reality" you might get a sighting of a Japanese task force that didn't really happen.

[Philwd]

In my game with Condor we have seen many times where the txt file I generate is very different from his txt file. Up to now the actual game reflected my; the IJN, turn.

2 turns ago my txt file showed me sinking 5 ships on a run to Taivu. In Condor's turn and txt there wasn't even an attack. He claims not one ship was sunk(all 5 show up on my sunk list). In another attack same turn my txt file showed me hitting 2 tankers while in Condor's turn only 1 was hit.

So I don't know what is up. But it does seem that it can happen that the IJN results do not always determine the turn.

Quark

[DoomedMantis]

they actually show up in your sunk list, and not his? Now that is something that I have never encountered before. That looks like a bug to me, and one I havent seen before.

[jeffs]

Actually, since I brought up the issue with him, the issue has pretty much disappeared...The reports have been in the ballpark...But like the joliverlay comments, when the problems happened, the IJN always ended up much better...

My guess (and it could be wrong), is that my file sent to him was either saved in a different folder ..Then, if one is not happy with the result, erase it and import the US turn again. That way one could rerun the scenario from the beginning of the turn and pick your favorite result...And maybe the combat save somehow is not readjusted...Just a thought..

But that said, it seems at least in my game, the issue has been resolved...For now.

[DoomedMantis]

I didnt think that was posible, and it was discussed previously (about 18months ago) and the developers did something to prevent this. I know that when I have repeated turns to get the combat replay again if I forgot to send it with my turn they have always been the same?

[frank1970]

Yes, I´d second that. Combat turns are the very same if you let them run twice (my system is sometimes unstable, so I have to restart). There are eg the very same kills by the very same pilots.

[Knaust]

As I have said many many times you can simulate a pbem game on your computer, saving files both as Allied player and Jap player, even with different passwords.Then you observe the actual results on the ships of both sides.
Try simulating a carrier battle with scenario 17, position Yorktown and Lexington south of Malaita and Shokaku and Zuikaku north of it (only 5 turns needed)
Then play the carrier battle, replaying it as a Jap player from the same allied file, and observe results for Allied ships as an allied player, and Jap ships as a Jap player.
The actual results (Sys, Flt and Fire damage) should be the same every time you replay the battle...I said they should be...but...
tell me what you have discovered...
[8|]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

I didnt think that was posible, and it was discussed previously (about 18months ago) and the developers did something to prevent this. I know that when I have repeated turns to get the combat replay again if I forgot to send it with my turn they have always been the same?

I didnt think that was posible, and it was discussed previously (about 18months ago) and the developers did something to prevent this. I know that when I have repeated turns to get the combat replay again if I forgot to send it with my turn they have always been the same?

About two months ago I accidently replayed an old Japanese turn-I was the Japanese player. It replayed a the turn with completey different results. A massive carrier battle that I had lost was refought with much more favorable results for the Japanese. I had already sent the corrrect turn to my opponent so it did not matter but I was amazed at this result. Did not know it was possible. This had not happened before or since. The replays are all the same. I don't know how I did it or how to do it again. I guess that is a good thing.

I have really never seen any hint of cheating in UV, but it is my experience that people that are really serious about cheating will find a way. But if they feel like they have to cheat to have a chance against me....so be it.