Trump battleship

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turmoil
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by turmoil »

c3k wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 3:09 am Random thoughts in SUPPORT of a modern BB-concept ship:

1. ARMOR. ARMOR. ARMOR. Current ships seem to be eggshells with hammers. Everyone assumes nukes, so armor would be negated, so we have thin-hulled ships. However, rational minds have prevailed in all conflicts since nuclear weapons were first used. I would think that conventional combat would continue. In what sense is 12" of hardened steel bad to have on ship? It's got to have some better protection against the HE rounds. Most missiles have "soft" penetrators. They rely on pure HE, possibly some HEAT (but that's easily mitigated.) So, armor would help survivability, yes?
There's quite a few ways of looking at this:
The first is that armour is HEAVY and would require significant sacrifices elsewhere.

Secondly, all the stuff you need to be effective in a modern fight (i.e. sensors, radar, comms) needs to be on the outside of this armour and is still vulnerable. Additionally, engagements are typically going to be at much greater distances where your main concern will be AShM (assuming surface engagement) which are usually much more accurate and potentially even be targeted at specific points on a ship. At which point that cost and space would be better taken up by defensive armaments - the best armour is not being hit, after all.
Until the cold war, a focus was put on sinking ships, but with these vulnerabilities that armour can't really mitigate there's a greater focus on mission kills because it has virtually the same effect in the short term.

That said, I do think there's some argument to be made to add *some* additional armour considering the threat from drone swarms. Where that would be though, I have no idea. Probably just better to add more lasers/microwaves/ECM.
thewood1
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by thewood1 »

"More, smaller, ships would be more effective"

It takes a lot more crewing overhead to man a lot of smaller ships might be one of the driving factors of a BBG. But its also putting all your missile eggs in one basket.
schweggy
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by schweggy »

Mgellis wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 2:41 am Interestingly, if people want to play around with this idea, the hypothetical CGN 21, ID #4447, which displaces about 25,000 tons, is not a bad starting point. I suspect the ship would have to be nuclear-powered to handle the energy requirement issues.

People have mentioned the issue of a vanity project. I wonder if the Navy is fully aware that they don't really need battleships right now, but understands there is now political support for this project, and so they just dusted off one of the CG 21 proposals, made a few cosmetic changes, and are using it as a way to distract those politicians for whom "battleships" are a bright, shiny object that they want because it is pretty. I suspect most navies have had to deal with this problem on occasion.
There are quite a few hypothetical units in the DB. #2653 - BBG 72 "Arsenal" is probably what this proposed "battleship" would come close to... CMO-wise. I'm toying with it now. Might make a quick scenario with it along with a few of the other hypotheticals.

Those other USN hypotheticals include a CG(X) Next Gen Cruiser, a Virginia class CGN-42, a few variations on the Zumwalt DDG-1000, some variations on the LCS and whole lot of unmanned surface combatants. They probably need some editing... the loadouts are less than optimal IMO as they were probably setup for the specific time period they might have been deployed... early 90's or whenever. It's tedious to mess with in the editor, but some "improvements" can be made.
- schweggy -

Montani Semper Liberi - Mountaineers are always free
thewood1
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by thewood1 »

I would think big ships are built for fleet-ish actions. DDGs are an effective tool for a distributed power projection. They are more like the old armored cruisers in some ways. A BBG is built to project force in a very martial way to overwhelm a fleet. The PLAN is heading in this direction with the latest 055 and plans for extending that.

I also think its a sign of the USN going through a sea change in what the next war might look like. Not penny packets of DDGs scooting around from fire to fire with CVNs being the big sticks. There has always been a part of USN leadership that is in the camp that the USN needs to diversify itself and not have all of its investment in the CVN basket. A super powerful SAG with the capability to reach almost as far as a CSG is an intriguing prospect. The PLAN is already getting there.
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TempestII
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by TempestII »

USS Defiant [BBG-1].zip
(2.36 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
I made the ship in CMO using the CG-21 CGN as a baseline as its tonnage and size were closer than the conventional CG-21 or the Japanese BMD ship. As there's no actual Railgun in CMO, it has both the 155mm and 127mm HVP guns. The US also doesn't have a modern nuclear cruise missile (the closest is probably the AGM-181 LRSO, but this has a high minimum launch altitude, so I didn't add it). Between the LDEWs, HPMs and HVPs, it's definitely highly survivable on CMO against AShMs. I put it in that Laser Dance scen and it didn't take any damage. However, it also didn't kill too many PLAN ships as the MSTs didn't make it through the PRC air defences.
BDukes
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by BDukes »

thewood1 wrote: Tue Dec 23, 2025 3:35 pm The concept seems no different than other "big ship" proposals in the past. I find it amusing someone mentioned power. The Iowa class displaced 45k tons and we had no issues powering that without a nuke plant.

This is not an Iowa. Iowa didn't have to power SEWIP, SPY Radars and recharge lasers. My experience s power can be an issue.

The power issues in detail:
We continue to invest in directed energy capabilities," Pyle said. "It requires space, weight, power and cooling, which can be a challenge on our current surface combatants.
"These things are based on renewable energy, so I can recharge the system … I don't have to worry about payload [or] volume with directed energy. All those things are appealing to a navy, [but] we just haven't really matriculated that into a place … that's ready for prime time,
https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R44175
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/03/las ... r-problem/

Mike
"Smart people just shrug and admit they're dazed and confused. The only ones left with any confidence at all are the New Dumb". HST
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SunlitZelkova
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by SunlitZelkova »

Mgellis wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 2:41 am People have mentioned the issue of a vanity project. I wonder if the Navy is fully aware that they don't really need battleships right now, but understands there is now political support for this project, and so they just dusted off one of the CG 21 proposals, made a few cosmetic changes, and are using it as a way to distract those politicians for whom "battleships" are a bright, shiny object that they want because it is pretty. I suspect most navies have had to deal with this problem on occasion.
The main reason the Soviet Union pursued the Stalingrad-class battlecruisers was because Stalin simply wanted a large capital ship, despite the Navy Staff openly stating that any Soviet capital ships built with WWII technology would probably end up like the German ships (sunk in any attempt to venture out to the open ocean like Bismarck or bottled up in port like Tirpitz). They hushed up when Stalin retorted and the project didn't die until after his death.

The design (Project 82) had actually been originally designed as a more conventional heavy cruiser with 220mm guns, but was upgunned to 305mm guns on his order (thus matching the pre-war Kronshtadt-class battlecruisers).

Disclaimer: I am NOT making a political comparison between/with any world leaders. Just pointing out an instance in history where the whims of a leadership figure drove naval procurement over doctrine.

That said, even if it does turn out that vanity drove this design, it could also turn out to have utility—two things can be true at once. Jurgen Rohwer and Mikhail Monakov, the two naval historians where the above history is sourced from, point out that despite their obsolete nature, the various WWII-style large combatants that Stalin had desired (including battleships and aircraft carriers, in addition to battlecruisers) would have potentially served to help protect Soviet interests in Third World countries during the 1960s, not necessarily effectively in real combat but at least as a political statement. And they view the eventual construction of things like the Kievs and Kirovs as a return to Stalin's quest for a globe-trotting navy.

Getting back to these BBGs, I think your later mention of the Japanese large Aegis vessels is an example of how large surface combatants like this can be useful. Given the large number of ballistic missiles China is building, rather than being built primarily with naval combat in mind, these ships could be put to good use in augmenting ballistic missile defense. The clearly non-vanity influenced JMSDF ships lend credence to that idea.

Huh. Looking it up just now, the Trump-class will actually have the exact same number of Mk 41 VLS cells as the JMSDF Aegis vessels.
"One must not consider the individual objects without the whole."- Generalleutnant Gerhard von Scharnhorst, Royal Prussian Army
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HalfLifeExpert
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by HalfLifeExpert »

Commissar Binkov posted an analysis of this.....thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHEl-dlR_pA
thewood1
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by thewood1 »

A form of vanity drives a lot of capital ship development. Its why battleships continued being built when carriers were already showing the direction of modern warfare.
Quixotic1917
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Re: Trump battleship

Post by Quixotic1917 »

So much for Distributed Maritime Operations….. Wonder if there’ll be any ex post facto doctrinal revisions to justify this. Surely at this tonnage and with so many power-hungry systems on board it would make more sense to be nuclear powered? (Not that this makes all that much sense in the first place)
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