River attack

[tyronec]

I am attacking across a major river, the ice level is 8.
8.5.3 - Frozen ice levels (5 or more for minor rivers, 8 or more for major rivers) causes all
river hexsides (including impassable) to have much less impact on movement or
combat (and this is the only time a unit can attack across an impassable river hexside).

So the river should have less impact on the combat.

Here is the first attack, I thought my attack CV should have been 100+ so was surprised at it only being listed as 687.

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[tyronec]

So the second attack I took some screenshots before hand.

My attack CV is showing 59.3 for a Hasty, or 118.6 for a Deliberate (I can't screenshot the Deliberate attack value).
Yet the 2nd battle is only showing 560 before the randomiser.

It looks like the attack CVs are being halved for the river.
Am I missing something here ?

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[Wiedrock]

You are missing nothing.

In your case it is 560/(593x2)=47.2% (actually less since you have some SUs rolled).

This is one of the last mechanics I have to quantify, but only managed to get one setup tested properly so far.
In minor river attacks I can give you this chart which shows a "leftover CV" of about 55% for a NON-MOT German unit already. So makes sense for the major river in your case to be slightly higher (I suppose).
I can already say that once a unit becomes MOT (same elements/TOE) more CV is lost.
I can say that DISrupted elements and CV drop are for Germans (having lots of support) shwoing about 3% higher DIS than CV loss.
I can say (not 100% sure) that the leader seems to not make any rolls.
Support/Need number may have an effect, not tested this yet.

[Wiedrock]

I think you assume that the manual when it speaks off "affecting combat" means CV. Not sure if that's the case, have you checked the DISruptions? Combat performance would also be possible in some way (e.g. even when DISrupted and no CV there may be better chances of shooting at higher ice levels - just a guess - or the mentioning of combat in the manual was just a guess or supposed to mean the minor river case I mention below).

Regarding the ice levels I also have to add, that the manual does not say anything about minor rivers not causing any effects anymore to infantry from (I think) ice level 5+. I pointed that out in this Thread.
So the rules regarding the whole ice issue are likely not 100%.



I also somewhat finished my list I shared above (no ice levels) since you brought up the topic.
What the manual states regarding the normal disruptions makes sense and is applicable to my tests.

23.8.9. CRoSS RIvER AttACKS
Combat units attacking into a hex through a non-frozen
(ice level four or less for minor rivers and ice level 7 or
less for major rivers) minor or major river hex sides are
required to expend additional movement points above the
normal attack MP cost (38.7.6). All ground elements that
cross the river to attack are subject to a disruption check
prior to the initial computation of combat value.
Ground elements with longer range indirect fire devices
will normally not check for disruption while infantry and
combat engineers most likely will check.
Infantry type ground elements will tend to suffer
approximately the same amount of disruption for both
minor and major rivers, but AFV and combat vehicle
ground elements will suffer more disruption in crossing a
major river than a minor river.
Since disrupted combat units do not contribute to
overall CV, players can anticipate a reduction in overall CV
of up to half for minor rivers and up to two-thirds for major
rivers prior to any other modifications.

[tyronec]

The three combats below, I don't usually look at the details screen so not sure if the disruption is above normal.

The manual states that changes from the display CV and the initial combat CV are not taken into account for river crossings or first winter. It is April and the river is frozen so neither of these should apply, but it looks to me like something is happening to halve the initial combat CV.
Will keep an eye on other combats.

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[Wiedrock]

I guess I have the answer. What you are looking at are Infantry units, they seem to stay the same for major rivers when they are frozen, while the MOT/Panzers get less disrupted from higher Ice levels (so the manual is right and wrong at the same time).
If this makes sense and why Infantry does not get any benefit from a frozen major river I can not say (like getting +10-15% = ~60-65% CV to keep or so).

Here you have the 4 scenarios to test (see German "LV Corps" under 6th Army under AGS).

River Crossing Test Scenarios.rar

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[tyronec]

Thanks.
I guess we can wait to hear from Joel if it is a bug, or a design feature - in which case the manual should be amended.

I wonder if it is the same for Ice level 10.
My recollection is that infantry did OK against icy rivers (waiting for the ice to assault across the river to Lenningrad) but I have never tested it.

[Joel Billings]

Not sure what Gary intended. I will ask and see if Gary/Pavel can explain how it works and if it is as intended.

[tyronec]

I checked this for Ice 10 and it is the same; Infantry are halved, Motorised are reduced but not so much.
I don't think it was always like this in the game.

[Joel Billings]

I found big disruption listed when I attacked over a frozen major river, but none when over a frozen minor river. Have asked Pavel to look into it and Gary if he can remember what was intended.

[Shupov]

Good news - per Joel this bug has been fixed and will be made available soon:

• Motorized units attacking over frozen minor rivers, and all units attacking over frozen major rivers are incorrectly gaining disruption at the start of combat. Fixed.

[Wiedrock]

Added some more info and ran the tests with hasties (did not do 16 combats for all the hasty examples, so the min/max may be taken with a grain of salt.
Hasties work(soon worked) the same as deliberate attacks.

Good news - per Joel this bug has been fixed and will be made available soon:

• Motorized units attacking over frozen minor rivers, and all units attacking over frozen major rivers are incorrectly gaining disruption at the start of combat. Fixed.

Makes sense I suppose (would have rather expected some inbetweeny), is known if the MP spent/needed to cross/crossriverattack are affected, yet?
With 100% it makes also sense that the MAP visuals offer not chance of distiguishing a frozen river from a heavy snow Hex.