EXP loss by exchanging elements

[Wiedrock]

@Denniss

I'm thinking of the experience loss of Rifle Squad 43 if it sudenly gets a 50% influx.
For the same reason I intend to remove the mot rifle squad+ from german 43a Panzer divs and replace it with mainline squads (from 40->+->43 to 40->43)

Squad 43 has a Panzerschreck already, more guns overall, an SA rifle and already has two MG42s.

And I also wonder (generally) where is the EXP loss to be found?

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I know there are many rumors about everything and anything in the game (often caused by the manual). But I do not see any loss in EXP by normal equipment swaps on any regular basis. Maybe you can offer an example? The above is an AI game from 1++ years ago and below is a current PBEM, both show no signs of EXP loss (amounts that would matter).

One is for certain, which is that the whole equipment change/upgrading/substitution is a blackbox at its finest, I never managed to make any sense of it after wasting days on end trying to figure it out.
Like on Soviet side it likes exchaning guns back and forth for no reason, wasting freight near the frtonlines.
Also freight being used to make double-swaps (was fixed - not tested since then). There was also no EXP loss - the whole EXP loss thing was one of several topics I was planning to look into when I found this issue.
What the system also produces are "monster Rifle Divisions" in 1941 (see following pic) - as mentioned, again no EXP loss. This is a PBEM and there are several Soviet RDs in such a situation (altough the 14CV is the highest of them all).

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[Sammy5IsAlive]

The Soviet example the unit elements pretty much stay the same (hence no xp loss) but it changes to a new smaller TOE (which makes the % go up) and gains CPP. It's just really unusual in those early turns to have a Soviet unit at 54 morale, high toe and pretty much full CPP which is why the CV looks so high.

On the Axis example, my understanding was that element swaps come in with an exp value equivalent to the unit they are joining (as I guess in most cases they are the same men being given new equipment). I think replacements on the other hand (i.e extra elements added to try and get up to the max toe level) come in with national morale/experience. So if a high morale/experience unit switches to a bigger TOE and takes on replacements to try and fill that up, the morale/experience at a unit level will go down but that doesn't mean that the original elements lost morale/experience, but instead that the replacements brought the average down.

I have very little experience with Soviets so can't really contribute on the element swapping. If you wanted to min/max I suspect you could do so with a combination of refit settings and max toe. But I suspect it's not worth the time and you dont lose out on much if you leave the computer alone to do its thing.

[Wiedrock]

The Soviet example the unit elements pretty much stay the same (hence no xp loss) but it changes to a new smaller TOE (which makes the % go up) and gains CPP. It's just really unusual in those early turns to have a Soviet unit at 54 morale, high toe and pretty much full CPP which is why the CV looks so high.

[...]

I have very little experience with Soviets so can't really contribute on the element swapping. If you wanted to min/max I suspect you could do so with a combination of refit settings and max toe. But I suspect it's not worth the time and you dont lose out on much if you leave the computer alone to do its thing.

Note: The CV and how to manage the Red Army are not the subject here, nor is minmaxing.

I mean, every Rifle Squad is pretty much the same.
For the Soviets there is a new Rifle Squad (-) that came in, which is clearly exceeding total Squad numbers from before, so *new men* overall and more squads overall.
The unit is over NM, which means new replacements to get up should come in at NM levels (at least in some way, however it works), but it doesn't.
To me this looks like a bug amongst bugs. But it was just meant as an example of the fun the system creates.

Sidenote: Following one more fun thing the system produces.

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On the Axis example, my understanding was that element swaps come in with an exp value equivalent to the unit they are joining (as I guess in most cases they are the same men being given new equipment). I think replacements on the other hand (i.e extra elements added to try and get up to the max toe level) come in with national morale/experience. So if a high morale/experience unit switches to a bigger TOE and takes on replacements to try and fill that up, the morale/experience at a unit level will go down but that doesn't mean that the original elements lost morale/experience, but instead that the replacements brought the average down.

On the Axis you speak about reinfocements, this is one thing that I think works as advertised at least (I guess that's what Denniss meant). Here it may cause some loss of EXP when you "combine" 2 different Squads to one type in a TOE, but imo it is neither a big factor nor as straight forward as we would like it to be. Certainly nothing you should falsify a TOE towards to avoid its impact is what I am saying - especially not as long as all the other bugs prevail ('ll give examples).

Following you see that somehow the system decided to use the Rifle Squad (+) which is not even included in the new TOE anymore, also soemthing frequently happening.
With those increased Squads and also the increased SMG Squads we see some EXP drop (as you describe - as with "replacements") but it rly isnt a big factor overall which would justify TOE adjustments. The SMG Squads tripled in numbers and lost 7EXP, it's not like it lost 20-30EXP or so by tripling.

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And another case of the same happening just a turn later.
Note that the system does not use the correct Rifle Squad 43 which even has more Squads and more EXP!!!
The SMG again loses some EXP due to being way more new elements.

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On the German examples I quoted Denniss on, the number of Squads even stays the same, so no large increase in numbers of the new Squad, so EXP losses will be miniscule 1-2 (if any).
And as shown on Soviet side you also do not need to worry about adjusting slow changes into TOEs since the system does just mix up things in random ways anyways, so no need to worry about some EXP loss here & there.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

In your two examples the unit changes from the 43 Guards Corps TOE (which has a mixture of 43 rifle squads and Rifle Squad + elements and 162 SMG elements) to the 44 Guards Corps TOE (which only has Rifle Squad + elements and 486 SMG elements).

As a result of the TOE change they send their 43 squads back to the pool (my understanding is that if you were to run out of Rifle Squad + elements you could start recycling the old 43 elements back into units) and take on additional Rifle Squad + elements, as well as additional SMG elements. As both are counting as replacements and not as swaps you see an EXP loss for both types of elements.

So both examples seem to be WAD? Are you saying that the 43 squads should 'upgrade' to '+' squads without any experience loss (I'd agree with that argument btw).

Remember that the TOE change checks and element swap checks are separate. So when units change to a new TOE they do not necessarily immediately change their elements to match.

One other thing that I don't know is working as intended is the replacements seem to be coming in with experience set at the 'baseline' NM rather than including the Guards morale bonus. I can't quite work out in my 'head canon' whether that makes sense or not!?!

[Denniss]

Strange the soviet units stick to the + squad instad of 43 called for in the OB - my guess would be that much more of them were available in pool. WAD in this case and may swith back once sufficient 43 are available
there is some Exp loss for large influx of squads from pool but this loss could probably be a bit larger. see sMAg Squad dropping 7 points after gaining 300+ influx
If equipment of this class was already present in the previous org the exp of new equipment may be higher than if the class was not present before - see exp of 32x57mm ATG of 66 vs that of 8xML-20 with 55.

[trooperrob]

On the Ground Element map, you can see that under Rifle squad it has Rifle squad 41,42,43 etc.

Take a look at the production screen and what you have in the pool.
It should create the latest items, and convert available outdated to newer items.
In my current game I have
1409 * rifle squad 42 upgraded to 43.
6 * rifle squad 39 upgraded to 43.

In the production pool I have 3412 rifle 43, 246 rifle 42.

If there is enough supply then it presumably should update to the latest.
Check if your units in the reserves on refit get the latest equipment.

Even if the TOE has updated, it may consider the bonus and cost of updating.

Take a look at your units in refit vs ready and the pool (and transit pool)

I think that if a unit want stuff, it gets put in the transit pool and gets there the next turn (provided priority / supply / kit available.)
I am interested in your CV values.
i am feb 1944, and my guard rifle in the reserve has only 26cv at 99toe and exp 63-69.
my rifle div 55-57 exp has 4.96 at 97% toe.
Might be winter / admin / terrain, but...

I am using the logistics phase report, production and ground element map screens.

Do your units in the reserve or on depots on refit get updated? (or high priority). do you have many in the pool.
I could understand not draining your entire rail network by replacing all rifle 1942 in one go.
The map elements shows acceptable substitutions, and it will try to fill gaps with any kit in that category
sorry if not adding anything

[trooperrob]

Interestingly, rifle squad 43 seems to have 2 different versions
one with 10 men and a panzerfaust, one with 11 without.
rifle + is 9 men.

[Denniss]

No Panzerfaust on soviet side unless this is ome inherited former romanian squad after their surrender.
rifle Squad 41-42-43 are upgraded to the most recent version once that becomes available, I believe this is only done in pool though. Maybe there's no exp loss if they upgrade along this line.
-/+ Squads are separate from this lineage.

[trooperrob]

The Panzerfausts are in a number of units - 15 grc have 525 normal, 471 with the panzerfausts.
presumably captured equipment. I have 3400 with pf in the pool and 5200 normal rifle 43.

Seems a high % to me, wiki says they were only incidentally used by the russians in 1944, but...

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Ignore my previous posts - I was reading the TOE screen backwards and thinking that the list on the right was the 'target' TOE.

I see what you mean now - seems strange that those units don't hold onto their 43 squads.