Parachute able devices

[Dreamslayer]

Some LCU devices have a property (perhaps, it’s a first game where I see this word instead of something like “feature” or “skill”) “Can be airdropped”. At the same time the game editor calls it “Parachute able”.
For “ parachute able” the actual devices (better to say “squads”) should to finish special trainings. When in the game you can see AAMG, LMG, HMG, Aviation Support devices with this skill it doesn’t look right. You can have LCU with one of these devices which has 0 exp but it already ready for Merkur, Market Garden or seizing the airfields/bridges of Holland in May 1940.
This feature should be only for devices of actual para units. I don’t know if such units existed and was used in SCW.

[RangerJoe]

I don't think that the developers want to have special devices for parachute units. There aren't many of those units in the game and it might just be a way to work certain units behind the enemies lines.

[Piteas]

No parachute units in the SCW. But this game is the basis for more games, and these special devices give you a clue

[Kereguelen]

It is quite simple.

Parachutable devices (devices with the 'can be airdropped' property) are devices that can be dropped from a (transport) plane. If you add devices to a parachute unit, devices without the 'can be airdropped' property will stay on the ground.

But this is not a thing in WIS anyway.

[Dreamslayer]

Currently these devices in WiS give not a clue, they give a confusion.
As I said before, this status means that the "device" got a special training. And devices in the game (like AAMG, LMG, HMG, Aviation Support, light mortars) haven't this special training.
Parachute units (like German, British etc) have own various "devices" (LMG, HMG, Mortars, engineers). At the same time armies of these countries have such type "devices" but without a parachute training. You can see para-engineer squad and "normal" (non-para) engineer squad. I see no problem to have in the data the separate devices for para-units. If SCW had no para-units then just remove this "property" from the devices.
I made the mod for one wargame about German Airlanding Ops in Netherland in May 1940, so I learned something about the case.

[RangerJoe]

Actually, a person doesn't need special training since that can cause more injuries than just putting someone in a parachute and dropping them behind enemy lines.

So far, I have only seen 2 parachute capable units for the Republicans and they are guerilla units. So by giving them paratroop capable devices, that allows the Republicans to put them immediately behind enemy lines.

[Kereguelen]

Currently these devices in WiS give not a clue, they give a confusion.
As I said before, this status means that the "device" got a special training. And devices in the game (like AAMG, LMG, HMG, Aviation Support, light mortars) haven't this special training.

No, this is wrong. The 'status' doesn't mean that parachutable devices got any special training. And I have absolutely no idea why you assume that they get special training? It simply means that it is possible to drop such devices with a parachute!

Parachute units (like German, British etc) have own various "devices" (LMG, HMG, Mortars, engineers). At the same time armies of these countries have such type "devices" but without a parachute training. You can see para-engineer squad and "normal" (non-para) engineer squad. I see no problem to have in the data the separate devices for para-units. If SCW had no para-units then just remove this "property" from the devices.
I made the mod for one wargame about German Airlanding Ops in Netherland in May 1940, so I learned something about the case.

Yes. I don't disagree. But this is about WIS and not about ... any other game that might have dedicated parachute units. Well, wait and see.

[Dreamslayer]

Actually, a person doesn't need special training since that can cause more injuries than just putting someone in a parachute and dropping them behind enemy lines.

Fine, let's not train the pilots because they can crash the planes and got injuries.

[Dreamslayer]

No, this is wrong. The 'status' doesn't mean that parachutable devices got any special training. And I have absolutely no idea why you assume that they get special training? It simply means that it is possible to drop such devices with a parachute!

There is a problem. Because the game uses a term "device". But in the game it means not just a gun or iPhope, in the game a term "device" means a squad (like infantry squad, HMG section, gun with personnel). So, by airdropping "AAMG" you don't drop just a single AAMG separately, you drop AAMG with its personnel. And this personnel should to be trained to do parachute jumps.
For contrast. There is the wargame "War in East 2". There are devices, but devices there are just actually devices - rifle, gun, mortar, etc. These devices used by "elements" - like infantry squads, HMG teams etc.

[Kereguelen]

The term device means both squad devices (devices that contain 'humans') and other devices (artillery, vehicles, tanks, AA guns etc. - devices that don't contain 'humans'/their crews or service personnell) in WIS. Basically the same as in AE but indeed different from War in the East with its 'elements' build from devices.

[Dreamslayer]

The game has "clear" devices, but its only non-ground - aircraft/ship devices (engines, cannons, guns, etc). Almostly each ground device has a personnel. So, you can't drop 50mm light mortar separately from its crew.

[Kereguelen]

No, that's wrong. Only squad-type devices have personnel (include personnel as part of the device). At least in WIS.

I have no idea on what information your assumptions are based????????

Using your example: 50mm Mortars are artillery-type devices. And while their loadcost includes the weight of their crew (for loadcost calculations; but this is specific for arty devices), their crew is not part of the 50mm Mortar device.

Their 'crew' is represented by the Support Squads that are part of the land combat unit they are part of. If they are in the pool or in RSV units they don't have a 'crew'.

[Dreamslayer]

Ok, let's without light mortars.
Gen.Aviation Support (load cost 8) - means this device have 8 men
Hotchkiss LMG Team (load cost 2) - means 2 men
Flamethrower Team (load cost 3) - 3 men
Or do you think that the transport plane drops flamethrowers separately? Who will use them on the ground?
Same for 7.0 Hotchkiss AAMG, HMG, etc.
50 Valero Ligero Mrt (light mortar, load cost 2) - it also 2 men (just because its the usual number of personnel for such mortars)

[Dali101]

This discussion was created by my fault.

I read the information about the "Guerillo" type units in quite detail.
Despite the name, which suggests something about guerrilla warfare, they were properly organized units of the Republic, fighting in the style of Commandos.
They were organized into a small company and later expanded to a brigade. Which was in reality a small battalion.
Since I read that in several cases they were really dropped from planes behind enemy lines, I finally gave them parachute status. (i.e. in the form of devices that enable para operations)
I hesitated a lot about it, but without parachute abilities, these small units have quite little meaning in the game.
And yes, to supplement the two basic types of infantry, I assigned the parachute property to some other types of devices (LMG, Flamm, etc.). So that this unit could be dropped completely.
I admit that this is not accurate and a bit simplified.

Can someone try to do it more precisely. Or cancel the parachute status...

[Dreamslayer]

Where in the editor these LCU?
Ok, I found it.

[RangerJoe]

Actually, a person doesn't need special training since that can cause more injuries than just putting someone in a parachute and dropping them behind enemy lines.

Fine, let's not train the pilots because they can crash the planes and got injuries.

Who trained Orville and Wilbur Wright?

[Kereguelen]

Ok, let's without light mortars.
Gen.Aviation Support (load cost 8) - means this device have 8 men
Hotchkiss LMG Team (load cost 2) - means 2 men
Flamethrower Team (load cost 3) - 3 men

All of them are squad-type devices which contain men (their loadcost is defined by the number of men included in a squad; 1 = 1 soldier)

Or do you think that the transport plane drops flamethrowers separately? Who will use them on the ground?

Flamethrower Teams are squad-type devices, please see above.

Same for 7.0 Hotchkiss AAMG, HMG, etc.

Depends if they're defined as squad-type or AA gun-type in the editor. The original WIS scenario designer chose to define some machine guns as AA gun-type and some as squad-type. Which is OK and quite appropiate for WIS (IMHO).

50 Valero Ligero Mrt (light mortar, load cost 2) - it also 2 men (just because its the usual number of personnel for such mortars)

Artillery-type device. Please read again what I wrote about this in this thread.However, this is probably not that easy to understand because it is a rather technical thing. Simply put: The weight of the crew of any artillery (or AA) device is added to the weight of the gun for technical reasons (game engine). But the gun crew itself (the 'men' or the 'manpower') is not 'part' of the device but instead represented by (or part of) the support squads of the land unit the artillery-type device is part of.

And while this is actually a rather technical thing, to give you a better rationale: You can capture artillery-type devices like the 50 Valero mortar and it would not make sense if you could employ the mortar crew (the soldiers) after capture and make them part of your own host (you cannot capture enemy squads as your war booty and employ them on your own side).

[Dreamslayer]

Ok, maybe there is a mess about "guns/men/load cost", but there are non-gun squads which have this property "parachute able". And even if add to the discussion guns like that mortar, and imagine that the mortar can be separately dropped from the plane. Who will use it on the ground if the support squads which you mentioned haven't "parachute able"?
There are should to be separate "devices" which only used in para-units.

If about "gun crews in support squads". Let's look at artillery units TOE. There are 2 art btn in Girona. At 100% TOE each btn has 8 support squads (load cost of each 6 = 6 men). It means that 48 men service: 9 155mm howitzers, 3 150 cm Searchlights, 18 tractors, 5 trucks, 10 horse wagons. What effective these Spaniards are!
So, looks like that personnel already included into non-squad ground "devices". Read about actual artillery units TOE of WWII and how many men they used.

[Piteas]

If about "gun crews in support squads". Let's look at artillery units TOE. There are 2 art btn in Girona. At 100% TOE each btn has 8 support squads (load cost of each 6 = 6 men). It means that 48 men service: 9 155mm howitzers, 3 150 cm Searchlights, 18 tractors, 5 trucks, 10 horse wagons. What effective these Spaniards are!
So, looks like that personnel already included into non-squad ground "devices". Read about actual artillery units TOE of WWII and how many men they used.

Certainly, "support squad" is really just logistics and has nothing to do with the weapon.

Look in the black line. It shows the service soldiers.