Crusade in Europe 20km Pre-Release Thread

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcqOP95HkqQ

The Strategic Command War in Europe "Europe20K 'Crusade in Europe' " Mod developer Elessar2 has begun recruiting play-testers. He needs around 12 or so testers that have a general knowledge or more of the SC game mechanics and a pretty large breath of knowledge of the war in Europe.

He has a Discord Channel with sub threads that we are using for the tests.

In order to get a link to the current version under development and an invite to his Discord (If chosen), it is required that you either have a Matrix Games account or create one, and then contact Elessar2 through the Matrix PM.

Also Discord is required as no discussions currently will be made public.

Consider this a Private Beta.

Here is a link to his Mod Thread: https://forums.matrixg...​

I can attest after 3 years of testing that this mod is excellent!
Cheers -OldCrow

Chapters
00:00​ Beta Testers Needed and Overview
12:07​ Axis Full Turn
01:10:11​ Allied PoV-Axis Replay-Beta Testers Needed

[Elessar2]

Again I cannot overstate how much OCB has helped to publicize my scenario, he is the man.

I posted quite a few clarifications over there. We already have one new recruit today note. So take a look and if you are game, hop on board!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

This is coming March 8 at 9am Pacific.
Will post YT link when it airs.
Crusade in Europe Mod (formally 20k Map Mod) by Elessar2 Ep 10 "Update of the continuing development of this mod"
Link to the Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... gjHW_rtGjb
Link to the Mod notes on the Matrix SC-WiE Forum: https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=402288
Big thanks to our play-testers:
Beriand, Taxman, TofkY, Unfortunate Son, commandergren, GraftMalt, MasterAegir, Stephan, COL von Manchu, Steelwarrior77, Atilla709 and yours truly OldCrowBalthazor.
Huge supplications and innumerable bows to the Mod Developer Elessar2
Special thanks to Fury Software for allowing modders to create these wonderful pocket universes with their editor.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Ep 10 video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNNZYQJrBX8&t=237s

[Elessar2]

Appreciate it as always, OCB.

[rmelvin]

So, when is the official release with the links and the map is open to the public?

[Hortense]

Hello,

I'm French. I'm very impressed by your mod. If you're interested, I'd like to help you translate all the text into French.

[Elessar2]

Hello,

I'm French. I'm very impressed by your mod. If you're interested, I'd like to help you translate all the text into French.

Thank you for the offer. The issue is that right now, thanks to how a previous modder crafted his scripts, the English texts are NOT in the matching text file, but are instead in the scripts themselves. So I'll have to move them all over first before I hand them off to anyone to translate, which will figure to be a bit time-consuming. Give me about a month and I'll get back to you when that has been accomplished.

[Lothos]

Hello,

I'm French. I'm very impressed by your mod. If you're interested, I'd like to help you translate all the text into French.

Thank you for the offer. The issue is that right now, thanks to how a previous modder crafted his scripts, the English texts are NOT in the matching text file, but are instead in the scripts themselves. So I'll have to move them all over first before I hand them off to anyone to translate, which will figure to be a bit time-consuming. Give me about a month and I'll get back to you when that has been accomplished.

Just use ChatGPT it will translate it all perfectly.

[Taxman66]

I've started making my playtest videos with Beriand public. For any interested (except Beriand :p) please visit my youtube page. I suggest clicking on 'playlists' as the videos post in order they were uploaded and you'd have to sift down to find them, after the 2 minute intro, otherwise. I intend to have all of them up before long.

https://www.youtube.com/@MrTaxman66

CiE Playtest Axis vs Beriand 0.jpg (284.24 KiB) Viewed 763 times

[pz501]

I'm not trying to cause any problems or controversy here, but I am wondering if there is an in the ballpark estimate of when this scenario/mod will finally be completed?

I do understand it's still under testing, that a dedicated discord exists for that, and Youtube videos showing some of the testing have popped up; but nowhere is any sort of time estimate for completion given.

This doesn't need to anything fancy, or have a fixed date. Just a short progress report on how things are going from time to time would be good.

By my count first mention of this mod was made on March 13, 2024, and the last posting in this thread was on May 13, 2026. That's give or take approximately 813 days in total. If we want to go back even further, on May 18, 2017 SIPRES posted thanking Elessar2 for completing the map and taking over. That alone is slightly over 9 (!) years ago.

Again, not trying to get anyone upset, just asking for a little information please.

[Taxman66]

Old Crow Balthazor and I will have a new youtube playtest that will start airing on June 26th. We've uncovered some minor to moderate issues so far, but have only just reached to the brink of Barbarossa.

Few of the playtests have reached 1942 or later, so this area of the game has barely been tested for playability, much less for balancing. OCB and I are hoping to do just that, as are the other playtesters.

I'll let Elessar say anything more if he wants to provide any additional details or guess at a time for a more open beta.

[pz501]

Old Crow Balthazor and I will have a new youtube playtest that will start airing on June 26th. We've uncovered some minor to moderate issues so far, but have only just reached to the brink of Barbarossa.

Few of the playtests have reached 1942 or later, so this area of the game has barely been tested for playability, much less for balancing. OCB and I are hoping to do just that, as are the other playtesters.

I'll let Elessar say anything more if he wants to provide any additional details or guess at a time for a more open beta.

Thanks for the information.

While disappointing in that I'd somehow assumed the testing had proceeded much further than you describe, as the main said: "It is what it is".

See you on down the road, and again thanks.

[Elessar2]

You have to understand that, unlike other mods which use the vanilla maps, this is pretty much a total revamp of the entire game system, as far as I have been able to push it, to the edge of the hardcode, so in a lot of cases we are in uncharted territory (= Here be monsters). The following factors have proven to be rather time-consuming to deal with:

• Swapping in vanilla scripts (plus some from another modder who gave carte blanche for others to use), which require altering map coordinates, among other things like percentage mobilizations per turn. It is very easy to miss some errors of this sort, but we've got them all tracked down (I hope-fixed the last one last week)
  
  General script and stat debugging as I've added quite a few wrinkles (such as unit restrictions in certain regions to reflect poor supply conditions), which often are assailed by what I call "gremlins" where values get mysteriously changed around without my wherewithal (I have conclusively documented a number of such instances where I wasn't just imagining it), requiring retesting.
  
  Absorbing, implementing, and revamping all historical aspects, such as orders of battle to fit in with the division-sized scale being used, hard choices made as to what unit types went where (or were deleted, such as armored trains). Do I go with a full historical 1:1 ratio between the historical OOBs and the unit builds, or not? [Decided to go with ~85% or so to avoid huge swarms of units] Big discussion today about how to nerf France as unlike the French leadership she can group her armor together and blunt the German spearheads enough to be annoying if not debilitating; I dislike "moronizing" a country's setup like that (i.e. nerfing her armor) just to make sure things don't get too ahistorical, but it has to be done.
  
  Tweaking other parts of the engine: combat stats, still doing so as test results roll in; tech, which is actually looking pretty robust; diplomacy, incl. those pesky coup scripts which I don't like all that much, but are required for historical flavor.
  
  Dealing with said hardcoded limits, most notably supply, and how they interact with the things I was able to change, such as movement rates (which for mobile units are much bigger than in vanilla).
  
  We have recently switched our emphasis from bughunting to game balance, which as Taxman indicated means all test games have to go the full war distance, which takes awhile at 40 turns per side per year.
  
  In general, various aspects of the game engine interact in weird, amazing, and unexpected ways, and it takes time to reconcile them. For example, combat losses and national morale as I have more units, requiring larger starting NM values to balance losses. I also didn't know all population centers have default NM values on top of the ones which are marked in bold colorful letters on the map, requiring me to eliminate NM from Settlements, as I have tons more than vanilla does.
  
  Before any public release I'll have to do a lot of anti-munchkin work to minimize exploits.

Fun and frustrating in equal measures. After the current round going to the end of the war, I want to do one more, which hopefully will be completed before the fall/winter holidays, but cannot make any hard promises. If I knew what a beast this thing would become...I would probably do it again anyway, but it definitely isn't for the faint of heart. Just remain patient and know progress is being made, this isn't vaporware by any stretch.

[pz501]

You have to understand that, unlike other mods which use the vanilla maps, this is pretty much a total revamp of the entire game system, as far as I have been able to push it, to the edge of the hardcode, so in a lot of cases we are in uncharted territory (= Here be monsters). The following factors have proven to be rather time-consuming to deal with:

• Swapping in vanilla scripts (plus some from another modder who gave carte blanche for others to use), which require altering map coordinates, among other things like percentage mobilizations per turn. It is very easy to miss some errors of this sort, but we've got them all tracked down (I hope-fixed the last one last week)
  
  General script and stat debugging as I've added quite a few wrinkles (such as unit restrictions in certain regions to reflect poor supply conditions), which often are assailed by what I call "gremlins" where values get mysteriously changed around without my wherewithal (I have conclusively documented a number of such instances where I wasn't just imagining it), requiring retesting.
  
  Absorbing, implementing, and revamping all historical aspects, such as orders of battle to fit in with the division-sized scale being used, hard choices made as to what unit types went where (or were deleted, such as armored trains). Do I go with a full historical 1:1 ratio between the historical OOBs and the unit builds, or not? [Decided to go with ~85% or so to avoid huge swarms of units] Big discussion today about how to nerf France as unlike the French leadership she can group her armor together and blunt the German spearheads enough to be annoying if not debilitating; I dislike "moronizing" a country's setup like that (i.e. nerfing her armor) just to make sure things don't get too ahistorical, but it has to be done.
  
  Tweaking other parts of the engine: combat stats, still doing so as test results roll in; tech, which is actually looking pretty robust; diplomacy, incl. those pesky coup scripts which I don't like all that much, but are required for historical flavor.
  
  Dealing with said hardcoded limits, most notably supply, and how they interact with the things I was able to change, such as movement rates (which for mobile units are much bigger than in vanilla).
  
  We have recently switched our emphasis from bughunting to game balance, which as Taxman indicated means all test games have to go the full war distance, which takes awhile at 40 turns per side per year.
  
  In general, various aspects of the game engine interact in weird, amazing, and unexpected ways, and it takes time to reconcile them. For example, combat losses and national morale as I have more units, requiring larger starting NM values to balance losses. I also didn't know all population centers have default NM values on top of the ones which are marked in bold colorful letters on the map, requiring me to eliminate NM from Settlements, as I have tons more than vanilla does.
  
  Before any public release I'll have to do a lot of anti-munchkin work to minimize exploits.

Fun and frustrating in equal measures. After the current round going to the end of the war, I want to do one more, which hopefully will be completed before the fall/winter holidays, but cannot make any hard promises. If I knew what a beast this thing would become...I would probably do it again anyway, but it definitely isn't for the faint of heart. Just remain patient and know progress is being made, this isn't vaporware by any stretch.

Honestly, I think that Matrix and/or Fury should commission you to produce a brand new title using all of the work and testing you've put in. I'd pay for such a thing, and with their support I have to wonder how much more you could do? You've already invested more time and effort than many AAA titles do, and you should be recognized for it.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Old Crow Balthazor and I will have a new youtube playtest that will start airing on June 26th. We've uncovered some minor to moderate issues so far, but have only just reached to the brink of Barbarossa.

Few of the playtests have reached 1942 or later, so this area of the game has barely been tested for playability, much less for balancing. OCB and I are hoping to do just that, as are the other playtesters.

I'll let Elessar say anything more if he wants to provide any additional details or guess at a time for a more open beta.

Thanks for the information.

While disappointing in that I'd somehow assumed the testing had proceeded much further than you describe, as the main said: "It is what it is".

See you on down the road, and again thanks.

Patience is a virtue and in a few weeks you will see a mammoth series between me and Taxman on YT. There are 6 or so of us in intensive MP Beta testing. There some bumps and we are working this monster out. This is a Moonshot development and you can regard Elessar as Mission Control and the rest of us as Aeronautical Engineers and Test Pilots.To wet your beak, I was given permission include some screenshots of July 41 in the Finland A.O. Taxman and I have played for 3 months straight just to get to here. And yes its going to be on both our channels. There will be hiccups at time and development is still ongoing. Elessar want this right, and so do we dedicated testers. Cheers

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I have waited for years to see SC get Finland right. Elessar gave me the 'Finland' desk, and here we are above July 1941 Finland A.O.
Note there are scripted rules limiting the amount and type of German units in Finland. There are also house-rules (possibly scripted later) regarding a Finnish Policy Line and advance limits and Soviet unit caps for an extended period in Karelia. Not going to get in the details except to say because of American warnings, the Finns cant close the Murmansk RR nor go beyond Svir River or attack Leningrad unless Leningrad or Murmansk captured. Germans however are not restricted but again there is a unit cap. Those can be exceeded but at a cost to Finnish NM.

Also there is a Finn DEC that comes upon their entry, which is a turn after a German war declaration on the USSR. The DEC gives Finland a choice to join the Axis Tripartite Pact OR remain out of it. Joining the Axis gains a Tank unit and a larger German-Finland Convoy but much unrest and a major NM hit.
However, if the Finns join the Axis, then all of the above scripts and house-rules are thrown out the window. A difficult choice.
Note Finland is a Major Power in this mod.

All of the above is just a very small slice of the this mod. There are other major development decisions and tweaks that have been made or are going to be made. This mod is truly mammoth.
So again,folks will see soon a beta version of the mod on YT. We will make discoveries of things that may need adjusting. Taxman and I will work around these bumps and continue as far as we can. There are 40 turns in a year, and we have gotten to Barbarossa. That and the Greek Campaign and North Africa are truly fun, organic and realistic.

Cheers

[roy64]

Is this multiplayer only?

[Taxman66]

The AI will technically work.
I wouldn't trust it to make an enjoyable game, especially the further you get into it.

[Elessar2]

To be exact, no AI scriptwork has been initiated yet. I will likely outsource it to someone else, as because of all the extra locations the resulting scripts will be mammoth in size.