Never Thought I'd Start Another One - tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J)

[Mike Solli]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

[RangerJoe]

Remember that CAP will fly UP to engage bombers but if the sweepers fly too high that they won't engage the CAP. So Oscars at 2k with other fighters at 5k and 7k might work. But others probably have better ideas.

One very important item is to have RADAR, more than one if at all possible, so you can detect the incoming raids and then the fighters will have more time to get into position to engage the bombers.

[PaxMondo]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

Let me find the link to obvert/lowpe AAR. He goes into GREAT detail exactly how/why to do it. They were/are the masters of this and the original creators with all the refinements. There are a LOT of subtleties and he explains it all ....

[sfatula]

There was a long discussion between them and others here:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=295215

[PaxMondo]

There was a long discussion between them and others here:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=295215

This was the initial development thread, a VERY good read. But the one I am looking for was a few years later, in an AAR from obvert/lowpe played a game against each other and by that time they had the wrinkles all ironed out. About mid-game obvert gave several specific examples of what his CAP looked like against Lowpe's attacks and Lowpe shared how he was attacking knowing the likely CAP layers. It was a great exchange and really showed:
1. Both players were genius at the air war, they had really figured it out.
2. The ACM (Air Combat Model) in this game is one of the most robust, accurate, and amazing pieces of modelling that has ever been done. From some other discussions I know a lot more about the who and the how it was developed; the fact that it was a TON of hard work to pull off (cannot over emphasize how much work, how many hours, panic, depression, frustration, ...). But, bottom line, the team did pull it off and there isn't another ACM model out there in a strategic game that even comes close. What sets it apart from all the others is that all of these tactics were/are real life tactics. CAP was layered. Bounce was a big deal*. All the things that were really important then are important in the game and a player can actually adjust his attack/defense to take advantage of them.

Can you play the AI and ignore them? Actually, playing against the AI you want to ignore them as it gives you too great an advantage otherwise. In a PBEM, ignore them at your peril. If your opponent uses them, your air force will be decimated.

ALL HAIL THE HENDERSON DEV'S !!!!!!!!!




*A lot of sources here, my first one and still all-time fav is:
God Is My Co-Pilot by Gen. Robert Lee Scott Jr., USAF (ret)

[sfatula]

Ah, ok. I have not seen the followup one then. I will look for it one day soon. I'll post a link when I find it. Yes, the one I linked had a few conclusions but it was mostly testing. The numbers in the thread I linked quite clearly showed how much better it was. It is a good read to convince you you need to do this!

I've read a lot of Lowpe AARs but never encountered the discussions so will use my search skills to find it if I can. I can only guess it's somewhere in "Beans Bullets and Black Oil" but I have been unsuccessful there.

I agree, the modeling is incredible. Not a simplistic I have x planes of x type, you have so many planes, add a little fudge factor and that's it like many games. Every little bit helps for sure, but the layered helps a lot! I based my layering on the thread I linked unaware there was another later one. Thanks!

[PaxMondo]

I've read a lot of Lowpe AARs but never encountered the discussions so will use my search skills to find it if I can. I can only guess it's somewhere in "Beans Bullets and Black Oil" but I have been unsuccessful there.

i think it was obverts companion AAR, they were playing each other ....

[sfatula]

Beans... is the companion!

Are you sure it isn't the Obvert vs SqzMyLemon as there is a lot of Obvert discussion there?

[PaxMondo]

Beans... is the companion!

Are you sure it isn't the Obvert vs SqzMyLemon as there is a lot of Obvert discussion there?

Maybe? Joseph takes over here in that one:
The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 7#p3905597

There is a lot of interesting discussion and MORE testing done here during a break in the AAR due to movement bug. Roughly Pages 64 - 70. Still not the discussion I'm thinking of, but also still a good read.




I just remember it being in one of these two, but my memory is known to be faulty ...

Screenshot 2026-03-24 112035.jpg (48.06 KiB) Viewed 661 times

In memoria ...

Joseph Daniel -SqzMyLemon- Sekida.jpg (41.43 KiB) Viewed 666 times

[PaxMondo]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

Mike,

I would suggest that you read the many above references for obverts modelling and testing on this. To distill it a bit:
Layered CAP works on the theory that your highest level CAP will evade the bounce, the enemy will continue to bounce down to the next level, where your top level CAP will then get the bounce on them while they are tangling with your mid level CAP. In the meantime, your bottom CAP can climb up into the fray.

These 3 levels of CAP: high, mid, low will be generally manned by different aircraft based upon the appropriate requirements of that level. This means we are talking about mid game or later because early game you have only 2 models AND you never have more than one unit of fighters at a base. It also requires that the opponent be sweeping, and as Japan that means the initiative is, or has, moved over to the allies. Again, generally a mid-game or later situation.

In the examples and discussions you will see that:
N1K is favored as the high CAP. Fast, decent MAN, great guns, good DUR.
Frank is favored as the mid CAP. Fast, good MAN, decent guns
Oscar is favored as the low CAP. great MAN, good Climb.

The discussions in that AAR (obverts Elephant) are early '44, so way, way, way later than you currently are.

The discussion that I am still looking for was about mixing this up, adapting to changes, adapting to allied counter-moves, etc. It was an expert level class in CAP layering. It was interesting because it suggested Oscar IV can be a good top layer (high MAN, Armor), where you would lose a fair number of planes, but not pilots and then Frank -r mid with Jack/Tojo low (both big climbers). Percentages (referring to total numbers of planes) were 30/50/20 top/mid/low, sometimes 30/40/30. Again, always remember these are BIG sweeps and BIG CAPs. 200 - 500 AC were in the testing ....

Hope this answers your question and hope I didn't highjack your thread here ....

[sfatula]

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... d#p4448404

There's a bunch of discussion here as well which is a good read and more explanation. Not just this one post it links to. Maybe search the thread for "layered" to see all the other tips.

I think the idea is the lowest altitude guys are the sacrificial lambs for the most part. So, one thought is to keep good pilots or best pilots away from those planes. As Pax says, it's all for later war when defending and esp to counter the P-47s as they rule using simple CAP.

[PaxMondo]

Mike,

you and Ted ok? Haven't heard from you in a while ....

[Mike Solli]

Morning guys. Just caught up on all the layered CAP posts. Really interesting stuff. I really appreciate the info you guys dug up for me. I just downloaded the Air War Guide to try and become more efficient in overall use of the air forces. Ted's definitely using his Air Force more efficiently, so I need to step up my game.

Yes, we're both fine and still playing. I just sent the 3 September turn off this morning. I've been a little slow turning around turns, mainly because of the Artemis II mission. I'm old enough to remember the end of the Gemini missions and all of the Apollo missions. Space exploration has always fascinated me. In high school, I wanted to become an astronaut so badly that I wanted to fly for the Air Force. Ended up in the Navy out of High school. (Bet you guys didn't know that!) Long story for another time.

So, I'm hoping to work on updating the AAR this afternoon. Monday and Friday mornings I play a historical board game with an old friend who lost his wife a couple of years ago and needs the diversion and play test for an historical board gaming company on Saturday mornings. Been doing the play testing for 12 years now. So, between that, traveling and grandkids, I sometimes have to squeeze this in early mornings or late evenings. I give myself 2 hours to run and process a turn. As you guys know very well, this game is more than just a game.

[PaxMondo]

... mainly because of the Artemis II mission. I'm old enough to remember the end of the Gemini missions and all of the Apollo missions. Space exploration has always fascinated me. In high school, I wanted to become an astronaut ...

Well, I am too old, remember Sputnik, Mercury with Glenn, and yes all the way up to Artemis. Got both Youtube channels open 24/7.

Most lingering memory: Apollo I: the terrible fire where White, Chaffee, and Grissom perished, ach ...
Challenger of course as well, but Apollo I really hit hard. I guess Cronkite's coverage was better ....

so badly that I wanted to fly for the Air Force. Ended up in the Navy out of High school. (Bet you guys didn't know that!) Long story for another time.

We'll hold you to this ... this is a good story how someone who wanted to fly started out in the Navy and ended in the Army. Did you get some Coastie time in there as well? Marines? (Hoo Ahh!!)

So, I'm hoping to work on updating the AAR this afternoon. Monday and Friday mornings I play a historical board game with an old friend who lost his wife a couple of years ago and needs the diversion and play test for an historical board gaming company on Saturday mornings. Been doing the play testing for 12 years now. So, between that, traveling and grandkids, I sometimes have to squeeze this in early mornings or late evenings. I give myself 2 hours to run and process a turn. As you guys know very well, this game is more than just a game.

Look forward to it!

[Mike Solli]

22 Aug 42

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Sixteen Nicks and 5 Zeros guarded Madang from 21 B-17Es, shooting down 3 for no loss. Unfortunately, the airfield sustained light damage that could not be fully repaired. I suspect there will be more to come in the near future. Most of the planes stationed there are damaged from the onslaught. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

No air combat today. My 18 artillery units are still slowly working their way through the jungle to the hex east of Cox's Bazaar. It'll be quite a while before they arrive. Supply is always an issue. I am sending all I can spare from the SRA to this theater.

China

Bombing of Kunming, Kweiyang, Chungking and Lanchow to keep airfield damage up.

The armies are positioning themselves to concentrate for future attacks. This is going to take awhile too.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement
SC Ch-34, ASW, will form an ASW TF to guard the waters off Hong Kong. More will be added as they are completed.

[Mike Solli]

23 Aug 42

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Today, 20 B017Es were sent against the airfield at Madang. This time, 4 B-17s were shot down for no loss, but they got through to cause more light damage to the airfield. The Nicks are doing good work, but the airfield damage is creeping up and the number of ready defenders decreases daily. Only 13 Nicks and 2 Zeros remain active here with 23 and 7 down respectively.

Elsewhere, more of Ted's bombers hit the troops at Merauke and Salamaua. Fortunately, they cause little damage.

SRA

Sixteen Nells tried to bomb Darwin again today, but 16 P-40Es were waiting for them. They managed to shoot down one bomber, and the bombers attack on the airfield was ineffective. So much for night bombing of Darwin.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Still bombing the 4 important bases to keep their airfield damage up. I've also moved 3 sentai (85) 2E bombers to Haiphong. They will soon begin bombing of ground troops at Kweiyang. The airfield there is currently at 3.08 and building to level 4.

Other Stuff

I'm recently realized something. I'm using the "extended" map. There are a LOT of extra bases, mainly dot bases. the SRA is full of them. I'm still clearing them out. This is a pain in the butt.

[Mike Solli]

24 Aug 42

Sub War

I have realized that small minefields rarely do anything to the enemy. Ted had snuck a BB TF into Cox's Bazaar a couple of times to trash my cargo ships attempting to drop off supplies. I dropped off 450 mines and 3 ACM there to see if that did anything. It did! The British sub Trusty snuck into the hex and hit 7 mines! Needless to say she's now a reef. Ted later told me that it was ridiculous how many times she hit mines. Anyway, it worked:

TF 195 encounters mine field at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Ships
SS Truant, Mine hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 302 encounters mine field at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Ships
SS Trusty, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 195 encounters mine field at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Ships
SS Truant, Mine hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 302 encounters mine field at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Ships
SS Trusty, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 302 encounters mine field at Cox's Bazar (54,43)

Allied Ships
SS Trusty, Mine hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage

I just realized that it shows two different subs hitting mines. I thought Truant had already sunk, but maybe I was mistaken.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Madang was visited by 10 B-17Es today and were countered by 6 Nicks and 2 Zeros. One B-17 was shot down and little damage was done to the airbase. There are now only 9 Nicks and 5 Zeros still available for duty.

Merauke and Salamaua's troops were pounded again, fortunately causing little damage.

SRA

Recently, I noticed an Allied TF at Ternate. (Yes, it's one of those bases I have yet to take. ) Anyway, I sent a TF of 3 CA, 1 CL and 6 DD there to investigate. They found the AVP Ternate and sank her. Ted was using the base to snoop on my with seaplanes. Not anymore! Pretty sneaky, that guy!

The Nells stationed at Saumlaki (who had been doing night bombing of Darwin) hit Katherine with a day raid causing massive damage. Unfortunately, they missed the bombers there.

Burma

I have realized that small minefields rarely do anything to the enemy. Ted had snuck a BB TF into Cox's Bazaar a couple of times to trash my cargo ships attempting to drop off supplies. I dropped off 450 mines and 3 ACM there to see if that did anything. It did!

Four Albacores found the minelaying TF withdrawing and torpedoed and sank one of the minelayers. Unfortunate.

China

Nothing to report.

Other Stuff

The A6M5 R&D advanced to 1/43 and is expected to become operational in 10/42.

The B6N1 R&D advanced to 2/43. Three of the 6 factories are completely repaired with the remaining three close. I anticipate this model will complete before the end of 1942. I will not build this model (mainly because it uses the Ha-44) engine which I am not building. The B6N2 and N2a use the Ha-32 which I am building. I will not have 500 of this engine in the pool (don't want to use the supply to build up the factories) so just the R&D factories will suffice. I anticipate the B6N2 to become operational ~4/43. Something just dawned on me. I have a B5N1 Kate factory just sitting around doing nothing. I'm going to convert it to the B6N1 and increase its size to 30 (it's currently 15). That will give me 7 R&D factories for the Jill. When it becomes operational, I'll pull 2 for production and change the other 5 to something else. Unfortunately, I just sent the 11 Sep 42 turn to Ted (I'm that far ahead) so I won't make the change until the next turn. By the way, I have 156 Kates in the pool. I've lost only 32 Kates so far, mostly in the attack in the vicinity of Townsville.

[Mike Solli]

25 Aug 42 - Really quiet turn today.

Sub War

The Truant hits 2 more mines at Cox's Bazaar. Maybe they both went down?

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Most of the Allied bombers rested. A handful hit Salamaua's troops.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

I bombed 3 of the 4 bases. One base was not attacked due to weather.

Other Stuff

Side note: In 18 years, a draftee who was in the process of becoming an MP and will eventually serve in the ETO, will have a son...

[Mike Solli]

26 Aug 42

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Ted really went for Madang today. There were a total of 7 air raids totaling 41 fighters, 71x 4E bombers and 62x 2E bombers. The first raid was the biggest and included all the fighters. The airbase was trashed, but my 22 Nicks and 5 Zeros did well. The lost no planes shot down and shot down 6 fighters, 4x 2E and a single 4E bomber. They did lose 4 Nicks and a Zero on the ground over the course of the bombings. The airfield is closed with 6 Zeros and 15 Nicks damaged and stuck there. I'm sending a couple ships in a fast transport TF to grab them. There are 28 engineers there to work on the damage.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

A dinky little Allied AMc cleared about 30 mines from Cox's Bazaar. That's really irritating. I have a couple of Ansyu PBs on a fast transport mission dropping off supply at Akyab, but there's nothing around to sink that pesky tuna boat.

China

Just bombing of the enemy airfields....

Other Stuff

Nothing to report.

[Mike Solli]

27 Aug 42

Sub War

The I-169 took 2 depth charge hits off Noumea. She's headed back to port for repairs, but her damage is surprisingly not too bad: 20-19(5)-1(1)-0.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

The Allied bombers went after Madang again. Fortunately for me, they went after the port, causing moderate damage. They could have destroyed a bunch of Nicks and Zeros on the ground.

I'm beefing up the engineer contingent at Madang with a naval construction battalion that is one hex out. Eventually, Ted will move on to other targets and I'll repair Madang to use to ambush his bombers again. (That's a hint. ) Some of the fighters and fighter bombers repaired and I moved them to safety.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

That rotten AMc cleared a bunch more mines from Cox's Bazaar. I'm now down 112 mines. An Ansyu PB will arrive there tomorrow. Hopefully, she'll take care of that tuna boat before she clears any more mines.

The I-123 dropped off some mines at Madras (where I think the British BB TF is stationed). On her way out, she torpedoed and probably sank a PG.

China

Just more bombing...

Other Stuff

Reinforcements
Boy did I screw up. I forgot about all of the ships below. As of 11 Sep 42, they're still sitting in port. *Sigh*
SS I-33, Glen sub, going to send her to SE Fleet. I currently have only 2 Glen subs there.
TK Kyokuho Maru, Type-1 TM (8150 capacity), will be stationed at Fusan to move oil to the Home Islands.
DD Kiyonami, Yugumo class, KB escort, fortunately, she showed up at Yokohama, where KB1 is stationed.