Now I can see how great this game is...

[vinnland]

Originally, I dismissed this game because it didn't run "smoothly".

But, after a few computer war games, I got into board games. And I loved the board games, they are a good teacher in why learning the rules are important.

Anyway, now that I have played board games, I can appreciate computer war games from a different lens. And I think TOAW4 is the closest thing to "computer war game that's like a board game, and a very good one".

[broccolini]

It was one of the first, if not the first, to convert those old Avalon hill, SPI etc. games a lot of people played as kids, to the computer. The first version came out in the 1990's. When all that stuff was being put on computers for the first time.

[Cpl GAC]

I found the measure of how TOAW crushed board games is that one of the great monster games of the 1970s, Drang Nach Osten/Unentschieden, took up a ping-pong table and it is replicated in TOAW in more of a medium sized scenario.

Same scale, solitaire play, better map, a better simulation, better rules consistency/application, editable.

[Curtis Lemay]

I found the measure of how TOAW crushed board games is that one of the great monster games of the 1970s, Drang Nach Osten/Unentschieden, took up a ping-pong table and it is replicated in TOAW in more of a medium sized scenario.

Same scale, solitaire play, better map, a better simulation, better rules consistency/application, editable.

Was that board game keeping track of individual vehicles, guns and squads?

[Simon Edmonds]

I was a bit young to own Drang Nach Osten / Unentscheiden but I had the next iteration Fire in the East / Scorched Earth / Urals and I remember how long it took to set up the pieces and reinforcement boxes for each game. And god forbid if someone bumped the table. Imagine the map set for D21 or FitE 2. You would need to have the back yard covered over and be suspended from the roof to reach the counters. TOAW rocks!

[Cpl GAC]

Was that board game keeping track of individual vehicles, guns and squads?

Exactly - that's why TOAW crushes boardgames. Immeasurably better in every category.

[golden delicious]

Was that board game keeping track of individual vehicles, guns and squads?

What this really does for the game is take away the calculations that a player makes a board game. You're no longer looking at your pieces and working out how to get into that magic 4:1 attack odds column; this is a totally artificial process. Instead you need to get a feel for what your force is capable of and go with your gut. That's what a real commander does.

[Curtis Lemay]

Was that board game keeping track of individual vehicles, guns and squads?

What this really does for the game is take away the calculations that a player makes a board game. You're no longer looking at your pieces and working out how to get into that magic 4:1 attack odds column; this is a totally artificial process. Instead you need to get a feel for what your force is capable of and go with your gut. That's what a real commander does.

+1

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Was that board game keeping track of individual vehicles, guns and squads?

What this really does for the game is take away the calculations that a player makes a board game. You're no longer looking at your pieces and working out how to get into that magic 4:1 attack odds column; this is a totally artificial process. Instead you need to get a feel for what your force is capable of and go with your gut. That's what a real commander does.

Yeah - this is the real magic. Somehow the game introduced so many numbers that trying to use them became impossible. There is so much science of war that the only way to handle it is to treat it like the art of war. There is no way for a human to number crunch their way forward. I don't even look at the odds when setting up attacks. It is not a worthwhile piece of information.