Militia Experience Levels

[Q-Ball]

I have some concerns that the Republic in 1936 is too weak relative to the Nationalists, based entirely on the Delta in troops experience levels. Now, I realize that a gap was definitely there IRL; Nationalists made big gains in August/September as Republican Militia units often fled when encountering Nationalist troops, and only the People's Army reforms in October started to bring some discipline to the ranks. I get all that.

But I still wonder if the gap is too much in-game.

In particular, I notice that most of the Nationalist Militia units appear with an experience in the 60s. Is this too high? This would imply a very high degree of training and even combat experience.

The Requetes and a core group of Falangists, from what I understand, were training in the period up to the War. But so were some of the Anarchist and Communist Militias, right? Republican Militias almost all appear in the 20s in experience, except for a few groups (mostly the Austurians, who had combat experience from the 1934 uprising and were kind of tough hombres anyway)

Anyway, I wonder in particular if the Nationalist Militia units start with too-high experience. It's higher than the Regular Army (which is in the 40s, generally, and feels about right for sort-of trained conscripts)

Thoughts on this?

[Q-Ball]

PS: Generally, I would think these Experience Level correspond to RL experience:

Over 55: Trained units with some Combat Experience. At-start, should be Army of Africa units only.
40-50: Basically trained units......Regular Spanish Army in this range, and very well organized volunteer units
30-40: Volunteer/Militia units with pre-war Training
20-30: Volunteer/Militia units with little to no training

I haven't checked starting morale, but all Republican Militias IMO should start with high morale....they were volunteers rushing to defend the Revolution.

I would start Regular Spanish Army units in Spain with generally low morale; many of the rank and file didn't believe in the side they were on, they were there because of circumstances and because they had to be

[Dreamslayer]

The Spanish army gained its last real combat experience during the Rif War. The war (or series of conflicts?) 1921-1926. As I understand it, only France's intervention and the use of chemical weapons were able to turn the tide.
Then, overthrow of the monarchy. This is followed by a reduction in budgets for the navy and the army. This should also affect the level of training.
If more about the LCU exp. There is the issue that any device in the LCU affects the exp level. If you add the new trucks/horses or something non-combat with low exp it will affect the combat abilities. There is the War in the East 2, in which the units have elements which have its own exp. Like, infanty has its own and support has its own. So exp of support elements doesn't affect the combat abilities.

[Q-Ball]

Here's a good example of a unit I just got; a Falangist Militia Unit.

Experience is 69.....that seems very high, units with lots of combat experience can't get that high.

Sure, it will go down a bit as I fill it out with Replacements, but it's already half-strength with a tough core of troops

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I think the Republic is going to get rolled vs. humans unless some adjustments are made to Nationalist Militia Experience

[Dreamslayer]

Can we compare the LCU exp in WiS with the LCU exp in AE?

[RangerJoe]

One question that you should ask is this:

"What military experience do members of these militia units might have?"

Think, many of the members of the militias such as the officers and NCOs may have been in the military already left the service, either quit when the political situation became difficult earlier, and/or left their units either voluntarily or involuntarily at the start of the civil war.

Since the military budgets and probably the size of the military forces were reduced, there probably were people in the civilian population who already had the training already. They could form the backbone of many of these militia units. Then there were the members of the military who were either dismissed from the service when the civil war started or left their units in the predominately Republican areas who traveled to the Nationalist area to join a militia. Or they were in the Nationalist area in military units which then left the area to travel to the Republican area to join a militia. With good and trained officers and NCOs, a unit can take relatively untrained people and become much more effective than a rabble who has no training and elected officers based upon their popularity. In the Republican Army, good officers who may have believed in the Republic may have been pushed into secondary roles instead of command roles due to political reliability concerns.

There were also individuals who switched sides after being captured and investigated by the capturing side.

[Dreamslayer]

from the report of Artillery advisor N.N. Voronov:

The following facts can be cited to characterize the previous training of the Spanish army's artillery. Only the artillery located in Morocco conducted combat exercises annually, while the artillery in the Iberian Peninsula rarely received ammunition, and there were batteries that did not conduct combat exercises for 4-5 years.

[Q-Ball]

I can believe that Nationalist Militias should have higher experience at-start than Republican ones, because of greater concentration of ex-service members. But two points:

1. 68 to low-20s is a massive gap.....I think 68 is way too high, that is Militia guys who are like Army of Africa Vets

2. Regardless, I think the IN GAME impact is that the Nationalist side is too strong at-start

On #2, I think we're going to need to see more PBEM play to confirm that, but that's my thinking right now.

Against the AI, there is no reason a Nationalist player shouldn't be able to win the game before December 1936

[RangerJoe]

I can believe that Nationalist Militias should have higher experience at-start than Republican ones, because of greater concentration of ex-service members. But two points:

1. 68 to low-20s is a massive gap.....I think 68 is way too high, that is Militia guys who are like Army of Africa Vets

2. Regardless, I think the IN GAME impact is that the Nationalist side is too strong at-start

On #2, I think we're going to need to see more PBEM play to confirm that, but that's my thinking right now.

Against the AI, there is no reason a Nationalist player shouldn't be able to win the game before December 1936

Against the Nationalist AI, I ended the game in January 1937.

But now, when the units get replacements the experience drops which makes it tougher for both sides.

[Mifune]

I haven't played War in Spain enough. I too had a thought about this, but I still am wrapping my head around this game engine. Also the game is quite new. The top end range for militia appears to be high for the Nationalists, but I need more time with the game. Considering Q-balls experience. Now after RangerJoe bit, I realize that I still need to wait before saying anything. I do have questions how various values are derived, but that is for a different thread. I had hoped that the manual would have been explicit with this.

[Dali101]

I tried to create it in such a way that new incoming units gradually decrease in quality.
And yes, the change is absolutely fundamental (and correct) that with the addition of a unit, its experience drops significantly.
(this was not the case at the time of development...)

[Dreamslayer]

If the Moroccan infantry units have experience 77 on 17 July 1936.
What experience should German infantry units have on 1 Sep 1939?
Or on 10 May 1940? On 22 June 1941, on 19 Nov 1942, on 5 July 1943.

I think that ground units exp should to be much lower. Same for air-units. You can find randomized Rep pilots who have skills 87. Compare it with KB pilots exp.

[Dali101]

There are only a few battalions that actually saw combat in the African Wars...
They certainly had much more combat experience than the German infantry of 9/1939.

[Dreamslayer]

Exp in the game its not only about the combat exp but also about the training level.
What kind of combat Spanish army had 10 years ago? Against the irregulars in the colony?
If these Moroccans so superior then Mussolini should have just hired some Moroccans, not asked Hitler for help.