Mot. Pioneer Squads missing

[Wiedrock]

The game needs the addition of Motorized Pioneer Squads. Currently there are only Mech/armored and Foot Pioneers, but the Motorized Pioneers were generally more in number per squad (rather 12 or 13 instead of 10) and concerning the LMG in later TOEs also had 2 instead of 1 (the Motorized Pioneers in Panzer Divisions had the 2LMGs already earlier...so not just the "Mech" guys had 2). So for the sake of easing things one could make it:
Manpower - always 12 (I'd argue for 13 but leaving out adding a Rifle for that last one!).
So to have them all evolve properly without average-easing things. Making it possibly:

• For Separate Mot. Pioneer Battalion + Motorized Divisions:
  -> Mot. Engineer Squads 41 [1LMG] 22.06.1941->31.10.1943
• Panzer Division:
  -> Mot. Engineer Squads 41 [1LMG] 22.06.1941->31.10.1941
  -> Mot. Engineer Squads 41 (+) [2LMG] from 1.11.1941->31.10.1943 ...or name it "42"
• Making both into one "line" [2LMG] starting from 1.11.1943
  -> Mot. Engineer Squad 43 (+) [2LMG] from 1.11.1943
  -> Mot. Engineer Squad 44 (+) [2LMG] (as done for normal Foot Pioneers I suppose)

means: adding a total of 4 Squads and adding them to the appropriate TOEs (Separate Mot. Pioneer SUs, Motorized Divisions, Panzer Divsions).
The "Mot." would indicate the 12/13 Manpower and the "(+)" the 2nd LMG [when keeping the "(+)" also in the later Squad names].

Edit: Dates can be changed according to ingame TOE change dates to better fit (+/- 1 month).

Some Sources (Niehorster):
1.10.1937: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 0&t=220242
1.02.1941: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... n_0712.htm
1.11.1941: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 11-41.html
1.11.1941: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 11-41.html
1.11.1943: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... _0712.html
Just to name a few, they can all be found on http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/__ge_index.htm (just check the "Military Organizations" Section). Note that he recreated some of them using his knowledge/other KSTNs.
He also has his Organizational Series you can find here of which the two "OS" marked pictures are from.

[Wiedrock]

The shown Pioneer KSTNs/TOEs are finally digitally available in:
BArch RH 15/534
BArch RH 15/535

[Wiedrock]

Attached the 3 late variants for the KSTN 712 Pionierkompanie (mot)[+fG].

Leaving out the 4 Drivers(I'd argue to add 1 each without a Rifle), removing 2 soldiers for the "Panzerbüchse" (it states it is only 1) we still at least get:
+3 Leaders
+(23or24)-2=21 Riflemen
+9 MG Gunners
+0 Drivers
-------------------
=33Men

33/3=11

So 11Men at least and all Squads having 2LMGs each in this late series of KSTNs.
With the driver it would be 12Men.



Will add the 714 series in a separate post later on.

[Denniss]

So the lineup would basically be 41(39)->43->>44 analog to the vanilla Pioner Squad?
PzDivs would then start with the 41(39) version and exchange it to the (+) version.

Do you have data about PzPio Squads? the 40 version looks odd with just 10 men.

[Wiedrock]

So the lineup would basically be 41(39)->43->>44 analog to the vanilla Pioner Squad?
PzDivs would then start with the 41(39) version and exchange it to the (+) version.

Yes this was the initial idea derived from the info I had from mostly Niehorster.
11/1943 they then combine again (with 2LMGs).

Do you have data about PzPio Squads? the 40 version looks odd with just 10 men.

Working through the 714 you see some of the Mech. I will see how much more Mot and Mech Pio stuff I can find.
I guess there may more caveats to the whole SdKfz situation (as it is with the Mech Recons), since there are some KSTNs with 250s and some with 251s and furthermore you'd actually need twice the Squads (at halve the size) in some(maybe most) cases than what is in game.
Regarding what Squad type would be needed in which TOE I gave an "easymode" variant in the initial Post, for sure there is more to know/figure on where to use which type in what amounts.

Sidenote: When it comes to "Panzer Pioneers" one can easily mess up in some cases/TOEs, sometimes the "Panzer" naming was simply used to indicate the affiliation with Panzer Divisions (or similar formations) and does not relate to the main companies(or any) being armored.

[Wiedrock]

See here under "H.Dv.g. 220/9", this may plug some gaps (also includes the early non-mot stuff (which would need a separate Thread I suppose)).

[Denniss]

In Africa the 15/21 PD seem to have retained their "old" mot Pioneer Squads, 10PD came in with "new" mot Pio Squads.
Shown in org tables from early 1943: 15/21 with 9x LMG and 10 with 18x LMG. 10PD also came in with one PzPio company while 15/21 hat all three mot.

Looking into my BArch files to find something about 41-42 PD Pio org

[Wiedrock]

Looking into my BArch files to find something about 41-42 PD Pio org

Niehorster has the compositions for some dates in the Military Organization column.

[Wiedrock]

Here is the "Light" 714 (mot) KSTNs, it seems to have went from:
(always removing the PzB -2Men since squad composition in game uses 2Men)

• 1938: 3LMG total, ~14.33Men
  some guys are on motorcycles and 6 total classified as "vehicle assistants" (passenger/"co-drivers"), removing them additionally (don't know why we would) we would still get to ~11.67Men.
• 11.1941/+42: 6LMG total, ~11.33Men or 13Men per Squad [unsure about the 7th "extra" vehicle with the 5Men+1driver]
  Tessing/Niehorster list 01.02.1941 and 01.11.1941 as dates for further released KSTNs (which besides this booklet seem to have been lost/not found so far - from how far I can tell) - H.Dv.g. 220/9 from 01.Aug.1942 is the best I have which should reflect the 01.11.1941 I assume.
  
  Niehorster tried to recreate several KSTNs with help of previous/later variants.
  His "Light" non-armored [type A] as of 01.11.1941 http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 11-41.html
  Sidenote: His "Light" armored [type B] as of 1.11.1941: http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 11-41.html
  Note that I did not look into the armored in this post/so far.
  I assume the booklet should give more insights on the actual TOEs.
• 1943: 6LMG total, ~13Men

Note that some of these 714 (mot) KSTNs were seemingly also used for Mountain Divisions, but then sometimes noted/stated as only using 1LMG per Squad and sometimes as 2LMGs. I did not take a deeper look into that to give any conclusions.