Ship ASW capability

[Chris21wen]

I think my understanding this wrong?

Manual says this;
'Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating, and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they perform at 80% of their crew rating.'

Ok! so the Allies have better ASW, yes. It also implies that Allied ships were better at ASW than anything else, arguably wrong? What I don't agree with is the lack of these bonus because the British had greater experience at night. Surely that's even more reason get them. What's it all about????

[Skyros]

It looks like the percentages are some kind of fudge factor to make early war ASW more effective.

[Sardaukar]

Wait until you meet Japanese escort ships, so called "Super-Es".

They were totally overpowered in previous versions, not yet that far in my 1128 game.

[BBfanboy]

Since the Allied ships were attacking Japanese subs rather than U-Boats, the limitations of the IJ subs were probably built into the additional ASW bonus of the Allied ships. IJN boats were much larger than U-Boats because of the long distances they had to cover. They were therefore a bigger target and less maneuverable than U-boats.

I also read that they could not dive as deep as U-boats. (This was in the early war Japanese supposition that the US boats could not dive deeper than 300 feet because their own subs could not.)

I don't know if IJ skippers were well trained in defensive maneuvers when under attack, but I suspect not. The IJN didn't like the term 'defence' since it's captains were supposed to be aggressive to the point of self-sacrifice.

I don't think the US ASW ships get the bonus until their ships get DC throwers, radar and improved sonar. They certainly seem more effective in 1943 than in 1942. Some of that might be experience levels.

[btd64]

Since the Allied ships were attacking Japanese subs rather than U-Boats, the limitations of the IJ subs were probably built into the additional ASW bonus of the Allied ships. IJN boats were much larger than U-Boats because of the long distances they had to cover. They were therefore a bigger target and less maneuverable than U-boats.

I also read that they could not dive as deep as U-boats. (This was in the early war Japanese supposition that the US boats could not dive deeper than 300 feet because their own subs could not.)

I don't know if IJ skippers were well trained in defensive maneuvers when under attack, but I suspect not. The IJN didn't like the term 'defence' since it's captains were supposed to be aggressive to the point of self-sacrifice.

I don't think the US ASW ships get the bonus until their ships get DC throwers, radar and improved sonar. They certainly seem more effective in 1943 than in 1942. Some of that might be experience levels.

I agree with BB. Once you get the Fletcher's you'll see a difference....GP

[zebrazwo]

I think my understanding this wrong?

Manual says this;
'Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating, and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they perform at 80% of their crew rating.'

Ok! so the Allies have better ASW, yes. It also implies that Allied ships were better at ASW than anything else, arguably wrong? What I don't agree with is the lack of these bonus because the British had greater experience at night. Surely that's even more reason get them. What's it all about????

Isn't it basically as Skyros mentions, a fudge factor in the equations. Allied ASW good (and maybe some prejudice against British abilities in ASW in the Pacific? or an acknowledgement that the Brits were good enough without a bonus?), Japanese ASW bad.

[Sardaukar]

Bit related but IJN thought US/Allied subs could not dive deeper than 300 ft (as mentioned, since theirs could not).

So, USN subs were sitting comfortably unscathed at 400 ft...until...

In June 1943, U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May, Chairman of the House Military Affairs Committee, revealed during a press conference that American submarines in the Pacific were surviving Japanese depth charge attacks because they were diving deeper than 300 feet—below the depth settings of Japanese weapons.

This breach of security, often referred to as "The May Incident," is believed to have cost the US Navy approximately 10 submarines and around 800 sailors, as the Japanese adjusted their tactics to target these greater depths.

Early in WWII, U.S. "fleet" submarines (such as the Gato and Balao classes) were capable of safely diving to 300–400 feet, while the Japanese generally set their depth charges to detonate at 75 feet or less.

Admiral Charles Lockwood, commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, estimated this "careless sentence" directly contributed to the loss of 10 submarines and 800 sailors, telling colleagues that the Japs were now setting their charges deeper.

[btd64]

Bit related but IJN thought US/Allied subs could not dive deeper than 300 ft (as mentioned, since theirs could not).

So, USN subs were sitting comfortably unscathed at 400 ft...until...

In June 1943, U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May, Chairman of the House Military Affairs Committee, revealed during a press conference that American submarines in the Pacific were surviving Japanese depth charge attacks because they were diving deeper than 300 feet—below the depth settings of Japanese weapons.

This breach of security, often referred to as "The May Incident," is believed to have cost the US Navy approximately 10 submarines and around 800 sailors, as the Japanese adjusted their tactics to target these greater depths.

Early in WWII, U.S. "fleet" submarines (such as the Gato and Balao classes) were capable of safely diving to 300–400 feet, while the Japanese generally set their depth charges to detonate at 75 feet or less.

Admiral Charles Lockwood, commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, estimated this "careless sentence" directly contributed to the loss of 10 submarines and 800 sailors, telling colleagues that the Japs were now setting their charges deeper.

I don't remember what happened to Mr May. Hopefully he was thrown in jail for treason.
A little fact, loose lips sink ships, came from that incident....GP

[PaxMondo]

I don't remember what happened to Mr May. Hopefully he was thrown in jail for treason.
A little fact, loose lips sink ships, came from that incident....GP

Now that is something to prove you can learn something new every day .... thanks for sharing that!!!

[btd64]

I don't remember what happened to Mr May. Hopefully he was thrown in jail for treason.
A little fact, loose lips sink ships, came from that incident....GP

Now that is something to prove you can learn something new every day .... thanks for sharing that!!!

You're welcome ....GP

[PaxMondo]

I don't remember what happened to Mr May. Hopefully he was thrown in jail for treason.

Yes, but no ...


"After less than two hours of deliberation, May was convicted by a federal jury on July 3, 1947, on charges of accepting bribes to use his position as Chairman of the Military Affairs Committee to secure munitions contracts during the Second World War. Murray and Henry Garsson also received prison terms. May appealed his verdict all the way up to Supreme Court, which refused to hear his case. May was sent to prison at the age of 74, and served nine months in prison.

However, he continued to retain influence in Democratic party politics, and President Truman decided to grant May a full pardon in 1952."

Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: Andrew Jackson May.
"Garsson Sequel". Time. September 16, 1946.
"Artful Dodger". Time. December 5, 1949.

[btd64]

I don't remember what happened to Mr May. Hopefully he was thrown in jail for treason.

Yes, but no ...


"After less than two hours of deliberation, May was convicted by a federal jury on July 3, 1947, on charges of accepting bribes to use his position as Chairman of the Military Affairs Committee to secure munitions contracts during the Second World War. Murray and Henry Garsson also received prison terms. May appealed his verdict all the way up to Supreme Court, which refused to hear his case. May was sent to prison at the age of 74, and served nine months in prison.

However, he continued to retain influence in Democratic party politics, and President Truman decided to grant May a full pardon in 1952."

Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: Andrew Jackson May.
"Garsson Sequel". Time. September 16, 1946.
"Artful Dodger". Time. December 5, 1949.

Thanks Pax. That guy was lucky. He should've been shot....GP

[PaxMondo]

Thanks Pax. That guy was lucky. He should've been shot....GP

Yeah, I'm sure the list of family members who would have "volunteered" for that duty would have been long ....

[rockmedic109]

Commander Walker gazed up at his new Submarine, U.S.S. Revenge. He did not like the sudden name change but it was better than the original name of Minnow. He was on his way to depart on his first war patrol when he got a Top Secret order to stop at this little used pier for a special operation.

A black sedan pulled up and four figures got out. One of them had a sack over his head. He was flanked by two burly petty officers. Leading this unusual group was civilian in a pressed suit and sunglasses which was weird as it was 0200 and the sun was not due for another four hours.

"Commander Walker", the leader of the show barked.

"Yes", he instantly replied.

"I have a new crew member for you. He has absolutely no training in any skill you might find useful. He has been assigned to your boat and will remain in your boat until you return from your patrol at which point he will be placed in the next Sub departing for a war patrol. You will assign him to clean the heads on you boat. Here", the man handed him a toothbrush. "This is his toothbrush. It will serve double duty as his tool kit for performance of his job."

What did this poor sap do? Chase the Admiral King's wife?

"We have a truck to replace your rations. All the Chili, Prunes and Deviled Eggs your crew will need for the voyage. Any questions?"

"Only one, sir. What did this guy do?"

"He publicly announced that our subs can dive deeper than 300 feet. These are your orders," handing Walker a file called Operation Poetic Justice.

[Moltrey]

I have read in a number of Pacific War books that part of the issue from a Japanese point-of-view was that ASW was deemed a low prestige part of the IJN due to their Bushido heritage, etc.
So, in a natural way, officers of promise went to the fleet in the air or surface arm and ASW lacked a cadre of good to great commanders and perhaps more importantly in the IJN political space, a proponent. It was considered "beneath" officers of worth at the time, although I think high command attitudes started to change once the USN fixed their Mk14 and started sinking merchant ships and strangling Nippon.