New Public Beta - v1128 Live Now!

[Cavalry Corp]

Yes, and it's appreciated - do you have any more observations?

How about this - Kaga and Akagi have the wrong 8-inch guns in stock - they should have the older one (and that's probably overrated) . And from the wreck of Akagi, its been seen she only had 3 per side, not 4. One was removed probably after PH attack:). It does not make much difference, but it's nice to tidy up.

cav

[Diliwitm]

Ok for example i don't understand why the P1Y1 have 16 mvr vs 24 mvr for the G4M, the Ginga was much more maneuverable than the G4M, same in the IJA bombers mvr of KI 21 =20 Ki 49=16 while Ki 67 a quite maneuverable bomber is only 12- What is the reason for this apparent nerfing?

Ki 67 was renowned for its exceptional maneuverability, which was rare for a medium/heavy bomber of its size. It was considered easy to fly and capable of tight turns and looping. Pilots reported that the aircraft, often described as a "heavy fighter" in terms of agility

[Cavalry Corp]

I might be wrong, but I believe the MVR rating of bombers has no effect in-game. However, I still put the base values in as I am not sure about it You will notice bombers are rated as 0 at all altitudes except the base level - I think that adding values in anything other than base value has no effect on gameplay, even though it should. I hope that the game used the base value and that's it.

I will examine these values you have put forward

Cav

[Diliwitm]

If the bomber MVR has no effect then why the editors bothered editing different values for them? seems too much for cosmetic. There should be a reason B-29 have 2 MVR and a B-17 have 9.
Speculating i think there then a fixed or percentage scale down to higher altitude bands for any bomber(LB,DB,TB AB etc), patrol aircraft.

[Diliwitm]

I had 2 Japanese PBs that can have the option to lay mines- i loaded then with mines - laying mines with do not lay mines ON. the ships were not moving being just static in Rangoon hex.

[Cavalry Corp]

Is there a fuller story on this one? Why is it wrong or appears to be wrong?

Cav

[Cavalry Corp]

If the bomber MVR has no effect then why the editors bothered editing different values for them? seems too much for cosmetic. There should be a reason B-29 have 2 MVR and a B-17 have 9.
Speculating i think there then a fixed or percentage scale down to higher altitude bands for any bomber(LB,DB,TB AB etc), patrol aircraft.

I would agree that there is some hard-coding to do with the bomber MVR. The stock values seem all over the place, but also for the allies as well. This points to revisions probably by different people at various stages in development and or revision. The same applies to quite a lot of Data, as they added in many types of Japanese TT, but they were never used. The data on these I found seems broadly accurate ( and I added several more), so I used it in my model. And now I have a very large DB of J TT more properly assigned, also the allies are a bit expanded esp. late war.

Therefore, it follows to bring BMBR MVR into realistic lines.

I have reviewed my DB and done this; some are down as well as up( remember my mod is based on RA as a foundation, but most of it is very close to stock in RA). I used the concept that lightweight and unarmoured, wide-winged A/C and many types of biplanes would generally be better than more manoeuvrable but narrower-winged types in general, but there are exceptions.

I will be releasing a patch for my mods in June, so please check it then. I think you will see it's more in line with realistic and your expectations. However, I am not sure these values will have any significant effect on play. But I do feel the DB of planes will now look more historic than it did.

Cheers.

Cav

[Diliwitm]

They did lay mine with option to not lay mines on.

[BBfanboy]

They did lay mine with option to not lay mines on.

This can happen if you gave the minelayer orders to lay mines somewhere else but on the way it met with an enemy ship or balked at enemy aircraft being in range. When that happens the minelayer returns to base and drops its mines there and the setting returns to "Do Not Lay Mines". Check your reports for encounters with the enemy or RTB from air threat.

[BBfanboy]

As for the maneuver ratings of bombers. my guess is this:
- Maneuver is mostly meant for Air Combat between fighters, in combination with other factors like Air Skill, Altitude, etc.
- Bombers are far less maneuverable and the rating is used in defensive air encounters only, along with the Defensive Skill. At various altitudes the differences in bomber maneuverability are not great so it was not worth the research/programming time to work them out.
-Fighter/bombers should have valid maneuver numbers for different altitudes.

[Diliwitm]

They did lay mine with option to not lay mines on.

This can happen if you gave the minelayer orders to lay mines somewhere else but on the way it met with an enemy ship or balked at enemy aircraft being in range. When that happens the minelayer returns to base and drops its mines there and the setting returns to "Do Not Lay Mines". Check your reports for encounters with the enemy or RTB from air threat.

No order to lay mines. Staying in Rangoon only, waiting for (better) ASW escorts.

As for the maneuver ratings of bombers. my guess is this:
- Maneuver is mostly meant for Air Combat between fighters, in combination with other factors like Air Skill, Altitude, etc.
- Bombers are far less maneuverable and the rating is used in defensive air encounters only, along with the Defensive Skill. At various altitudes the differences in bomber maneuverability are not great so it was not worth the research/programming time to work them out.
-Fighter/bombers should have valid maneuver numbers for different altitudes.

The issue is why a Ki 21 have 20 MVR while a Ki-67 have 12 despite praised for its heavy fighter MVR quality while a bomber and only 3 steps from a B17 at 9. Same for the lumbering G4M 24 MVR vs P1Y1 16 MVR

[zebrazwo]

They did lay mine with option to not lay mines on.

This can happen if you gave the minelayer orders to lay mines somewhere else but on the way it met with an enemy ship or balked at enemy aircraft being in range. When that happens the minelayer returns to base and drops its mines there and the setting returns to "Do Not Lay Mines". Check your reports for encounters with the enemy or RTB from air threat.

No order to lay mines. Staying in Rangoon only, waiting for (better) ASW escorts.

As for the maneuver ratings of bombers. my guess is this:
- Maneuver is mostly meant for Air Combat between fighters, in combination with other factors like Air Skill, Altitude, etc.
- Bombers are far less maneuverable and the rating is used in defensive air encounters only, along with the Defensive Skill. At various altitudes the differences in bomber maneuverability are not great so it was not worth the research/programming time to work them out.
-Fighter/bombers should have valid maneuver numbers for different altitudes.

The issue is why a Ki 21 have 20 MVR while a Ki-67 have 12 despite praised for its heavy fighter MVR quality while a bomber and only 3 steps from a B17 at 9. Same for the lumbering G4M 24 MVR vs P1Y1 16 MVR

Doing some searching in the archives:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... R#p2108581

And BTW, the MVR rating data field is not used for bombers,

[zebrazwo]

and this?

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... R#p2730554

Interesting comment about evading flak (can't find any other similar reference)
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... R#p3158437

Although there is this:
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... R#p3051930

Obviously, this is a bit urban legend, since no Dev confirms any of these conjectures.

[Cavalry Corp]

All interesting stuff, but does not really reach any conclusion.

You can see in combat reports with fighters, you do get evasion messages, not so with bombers, though you do get driven off by defensive fire - this could be a combination of the DEF skill and MVR?

You do get the message that bombers outpace some fighters, which may happen more in my mod.

Not all messages in the combat play mean what they say. Example Belt hit for TT. Not true, some TT do hit the real armoured belt= about 30%, and in my mod, therefore, some do not penetrate the very thick belts - now working ok in my game. In game all TT penetrate all belts - it was not so. But there is almost no true historical data on TT penetration as TT were so expensive to test. So I used a general guide in my mod dividing most TT into light, medium and heavy types for evaluating the penetration potential.

I think that MVR does have some effect - it's best to put it in and try to make sure it's correct, but I do not think that value is really the same as fighters. We know that certain fields have a dual purpose in the editor for ships, and it could be that the same is true for bombers. The value that is put in the MVR rating maybe used in a way or in a formula ( maybe with the DEF skill) that has been omitted from reaching our ears. Either way, it seems to have little effect and is part of the hard-coding that perhaps should have been revised.

As I said before, some values in the DB render some weapons useless, but just nudge them up a touch, and suddenly they work. Examples: a squad with Assault under 10 has 0 combat AV effectiveness. Raise it to 10, and it does.

Here is a question I have not got: War in Spain - what happens in that game, as it's supposed to be similar?

Cav

[btd64]

War in Spain is not similar. Everything works as much as possible to historical outcomes....GP

[Cavalry Corp]

Sorry, I meant does Bomber MVR make a difference?

Cav

[btd64]

Sorry, I meant does Bomber MVR make a difference?

Cav

No problem. Yes, I believe it does. Remember that they can swing a little. Larger bombers have less mvr than smaller ones. Mvr and size have an affect. If I remember correctly ....GP

[Cavalry Corp]

Ok good then I guess we can assume that in AE it is considered in some deep, hard-coded formula

cav

[zebrazwo]

All interesting stuff, but does not really reach any conclusion.

*Snip*

I suppose someone could always replicate the test rader did in the first post

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 0#p2729370

[Bo Rearguard]

No problem. Yes, I believe it does. Remember that they can swing a little. Larger bombers have less mvr than smaller ones. Mvr and size have an affect. If I remember correctly ....GP

Going really deep into the weeds now, but does a bomber's maneuver rating improve any after it drops it's payload or is it the same either way?