Explain me this battle

[Stamb]

1.png (311.59 KiB) Viewed 1586 times

this 3 units were properly isolated and Gross... regiment was forced to retreat during this turn

HQs for this units are miles away, definitely not within 5 hex range

how it is possible that their CV increases by 2x? i totally do not get it

isnt units outside of HQ range supposed to miss all rolls which should lead to CV decrease?

[Stamb]

another question

why 12th army leader is not leading a battle when 199th RD has 60 CV (already with -10% penalty i suppose) while 195th RD only 59CV?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

With the HQs I think the answer is that the commanding HQ is the one with the highest total initial CV committed. So in your example (assuming there are not further big units that are hidden below the display) 14A committed 117CV and 12A committed 98CV. So 14A leads the attack.

Your bigger question is a bit more difficult to answer and I can only really go off my own experience. Essentially the displayed/initial CVs are estimates. It seems to me that when doing this estimation there is a big penalty applied to an isolated unit in terms of its displayed CV - a penalty that at least in the first turn of isolation seems to be quite a bit greater than the actual combat penalties the unit will deal with, particularly in that first turn. Again just going off my own fairly limited experience but it seems that the gap between the displayed CV and the actual CV of isolated units is bigger the stronger/more experienced they are.

My very broad rule of thumb playing the early turns as the Axis and dealing with Soviet units that have been isolated a single turn is to double their displayed CV when I am working out how much I need to shift them. Once they have been isolated for a second turn I treat their displayed CV as being accurate. If I was a Soviet player in those early turns attacking isolated Panzer divisions (before they have had the chance to be worn down) I could see my rule of thumb being quadrupling the displayed CV - so in your example where the displayed CV for the stack is 4.9 if I wanted to guarantee a win I'd be trying to attack with 40CV of my own.

[loki100]

,,,
this 3 units were properly isolated and Gross... regiment was forced to retreat during this turn

HQs for this units are miles away, definitely not within 5 hex range

how it is possible that their CV increases by 2x? i totally do not get it

isnt units outside of HQ range supposed to miss all rolls which should lead to CV decrease?

a) lead HQ is the one contributing the most CV - 23.8.6

b) isolated units have an arbitrary 50% cut on their cv - 23.14.4. This can be offset if they have local supply, so as above don't trust the cv of an isolated defender on the first turn or if you suspect they have access to a depot

c) leadership keys off range - 15.5.4 so if you are right in your statement then it will be the isolation issue that affected the cv

[Stamb]

it was first turn of their isolation

actually i have screenshot from my prev turn where i just isolated them


ss + panzer + beaten GD gives around 10 CV which i actually got in a battle
but for some reason game was suggesting that they are 5 CV, and it was not a mistake cuz of a recon, because after a battle they also stayed with 5 cv displayed on a map

so i see two problems here:
- if player is not aware that unit CV is halved with isolation, while it is actually not, it can lead to a battles like this, developers might consider fixing it
- now we know that their real CV is 10, and it did not fell at all in a battle, so all checks were passed even with HQ smth like 10 or maybe even more hexes away?

[ElizabethWizard]

1.png

this 3 units were properly isolated and Gross... regiment was forced to retreat during this turn

HQs for this units are miles away, definitely not within 5 hex range

how it is possible that their CV increases by 2x? i totally do not get it

isnt units outside of HQ range supposed to miss all rolls which should lead to CV decrease?

The Axis Space Marines strike again!

[Wiedrock]

Now the Soviet Space Marines have struck.

I can reproduce the Observation Stamb made back then. But in my case it only works with Hasty attacks. This may be related to how "heavy" Germans hit and therefore Soviets have not that many elements left to "double" the CV.
This somewhat reminds me of the recently discovered mechanice that removes "1st Winter Heavy Snow hex pre battle disruption CV penalties" from Germans, which caused also weird double/triple-'sized CV increases.

Undocumented rule (First Winter Disruption) – Non-Finnish and non-mountain Axis
units, in combat where the defending unit is in a heavy snow hex from December 1941
through February 1942, suffer significant disruption at the start of a battle. The amount
of disruption reduces each month and is higher for an attacker than a defender.
Support units and reserve units committed to battle, now suffer First Winter Disruption.
Also, the start of battle CV values now reflect the amount of disruption done by First
Winter Disruption for all units fighting in a heavy snow hex (used to only reflect this for
attacker on-map combat units).
Undocumented rule – Just prior to resolving the final odds for a battle, there is a
chance that up to ¾ of the ground elements disrupted will have their disruption
removed. The higher the experience of the elements, the greater the chance of
removal.

ISO-CV-issue.jpg (922.45 KiB) Viewed 1103 times

...and another example, same turn.

example 2.png (834.38 KiB) Viewed 1103 times

Furthermore, attached some older test concerning the CV "/2" inside of pockets.
1. A Unit in ISOLATION gets a "/2" to their initial CV in any regular ISOLATED Hexes (we just ignore all "specials" there could be). This is what the manual states and it works as described.
2. A Depot in the Pocket does not change that in any way. In my example there is neither a Depot, nor Air Supplies. In Pockets with Depots it similarly does not change anything about the "/2".
3. The only way to ....the only way there should be to remove this "/2" is by supplying 500tons Air Supplies into the pocket. This removes that "/2" to the initial CV this is also described in the manual and works.

The Question now is, Why are those Germans in Deliberate attacks (in Stamb's example) and those Soviets in Hasty attacks in my examples, getting their final CV about doubled???
Again, this reminds me off this issue we had a while ago.

[Wiedrock]

The hobo experience. Again as in the initial Post Germans get 2x while isolated.

I generally like it since I think isolation is too strong, but it's a mechanic that needs clarification.

[Wiedrock]

From a ongoing PBEM.

[Wiedrock]

Watching my first WitW Let's play. Was present in WitW already.
So we need an explanation what this is about since this is an (to me) unknown mechanic.
Any WitW player ideas?

[Wiedrock]

It appears, this "doubling" of final CV for ISOLATED units is caused by a "chance(roll(?))" to remove the "/2" ISOLATION-debuff which is applied to initialCV of a unit while being in an ISOLATED state.
Once you air drop 500tons into the pocket this ISOLATION-debuff is removed (you see it in the initial CV being back to normal) and in return, this ominous occasional doubling of the final CV stops.

So to me it is case closed - unless something else comes up or we see it appear even with air supplies in other occasions - manual Errata/correction would be neat.

---

Sidenote (far side, it should be clear to many since the manual is clear on that):
The Urban bonus

Errata 01.02.47
Rule correction/display fix – The terrain combat modifier for non-isolated units
in urban terrain is not +16 for heavy urban, and +12 for light urban. It is actually
+4/+3 (same as for isolated units), but with an additional x4 for the adjusted CV
if the unit is non-isolated.

for not being ISOLATED also gets back added when supplying 500tons+ by air.