[ADDED] Realistic ASW and Sonobuoy Use?

[PaulWRoberts]

I have questions about sonobuoys and ASW missions.

In CMANO, any aircraft on ASW patrol will blanket its area with sonobuoys until it runs out of them. Is this standard procedure when sub threats are possible but not currently suspected nearby? In a patrol of decent length, the aircraft (and eventually its carrier) will run out of buoys pretty quickly.

1) What do actual navies do here? I assume that they don't start dropping sonobuoys until they are actually hunting subs or at least have reason to think they are nearby.

2) In CMANO terms, what is the realistic thing to do? Should a SAG just not have standing ASW patrols out unless subs are thought to be near?

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

4) Likewise, would it be possible to add an option for helicopters on ASW patrol to occasionally stop and use their dipping sonars without requiring the player to order it manually each time?

5) Finally, how much does it cost taxpayers when I drop dozens of sonobuoys to the bottom of the ocean?

[navwarcol]

Usually sonobuoys are dropped when trying to classify/localize a target already detected or suspected in a certain area by other means.

During the Cold War this was not always the case, and sometimes planning, at least, called for the use of a great many more buoys than would probably have been realistically available.

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts
I have questions about sonobuoys and ASW missions.

In CMANO, any aircraft on ASW patrol will blanket its area with sonobuoys until it runs out of them. Is this standard procedure when sub threats are possible but not currently suspected nearby? In a patrol of decent length, the aircraft (and eventually its carrier) will run out of buoys pretty quickly.

1) What do actual navies do here? I assume that they don't start dropping sonobuoys until they are actually hunting subs or at least have reason to think they are nearby.

[...]

5) Finally, how much does it cost taxpayers when I drop dozens of sonobuoys to the bottom of the ocean?

Naval forces are generally fairly liberal with the expenditure of sonobuoys when they consider a non-trivial submarine threat.

Back in 1987 when the Soviets surged a number of attack submarines in the Atlantic, to test how close they could get to the US coast with minimal detection, the 2nd fleet nearly run out of its sonobuoy stocks trying to run them down (not very successfully too, reportedly). And that was in peacetime.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts

I have questions about sonobuoys and ASW missions.

In CMANO, any aircraft on ASW patrol will blanket its area with sonobuoys until it runs out of them. Is this standard procedure when sub threats are possible but not currently suspected nearby? In a patrol of decent length, the aircraft (and eventually its carrier) will run out of buoys pretty quickly.

1) What do actual navies do here? I assume that they don't start dropping sonobuoys until they are actually hunting subs or at least have reason to think they are nearby.

Can't speak for the pro's but guessing there's tons of operational stuff out there on this.

2) In CMANO terms, what is the realistic thing to do? Should a SAG just not have standing ASW patrols out unless subs are thought to be near?

This is what I do.

Depends on what capabilities my units have but in general I use my units with good sonars preferably towed arrays for the initial detections and I set a number of ASW helicopters to an ASW strike mission so they'll launch, try and get a better detection of the target and then attack it. If the water's are coastal/shallow where my passive sensor are less effective I may employ barrier type ASW patrols outside of what I think the enemies ASW range might be. Depends on the case though.

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

I've added the request but keep in mind this is one case out of many possible cases.

4) Likewise, would it be possible to add an option for helicopters on ASW patrol to occasionally stop and use their dipping sonars without requiring the player to order it manually each time?

They do that now. That is the default behavior with ASW helicopters with bouys and dipping sonar. Please keep in mind though most dipping sonar nowadays is both passive/active so if you want active you need to set your emcon as active.

5) Finally, how much does it cost taxpayers when I drop dozens of sonobuoys to the bottom of the ocean?

Probably enough to be very vague and general in your answers[:)]

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts

I have questions about sonobuoys and ASW missions.

In CMANO, any aircraft on ASW patrol will blanket its area with sonobuoys until it runs out of them. Is this standard procedure when sub threats are possible but not currently suspected nearby? In a patrol of decent length, the aircraft (and eventually its carrier) will run out of buoys pretty quickly.

1) What do actual navies do here? I assume that they don't start dropping sonobuoys until they are actually hunting subs or at least have reason to think they are nearby.

2) In CMANO terms, what is the realistic thing to do? Should a SAG just not have standing ASW patrols out unless subs are thought to be near?

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

4) Likewise, would it be possible to add an option for helicopters on ASW patrol to occasionally stop and use their dipping sonars without requiring the player to order it manually each time?

5) Finally, how much does it cost taxpayers when I drop dozens of sonobuoys to the bottom of the ocean?

Depending on your source of information, a simple passive sonobuoy is in the low hundreds of dollars (figure $200 or so) while an advanced active sonobuoy will cost a few thousand ($3K -$5K). Dropping a barn full of passive cheap sonobuoys is probably way less expensive than operating the aircraft that is dropping them. However, I suspect (and have heard from operators) that the more expensive active sonobuoys are managed more carefully.

I don't have latest numbers, but at one point the US was purchasing 60K sonobuoys of all types per year. Even at $1K per pop, that is about $60 million per year -- chump change in the scope of the defense budget. Consider that against the price of a guided munition -- a cheap kit will set you back $25K each.

Regards,
Feltan

[PaulWRoberts]

Thanks for the replies!

They do that now. That is the default behavior with ASW helicopters with bouys and dipping sonar. Please keep in mind though most dipping sonar nowadays is both passive/active so if you want active you need to set your emcon as active.

Ah, I didn't know this. Thanks again.

[Dimitris]

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

This has been added as an ASW doctrine setting for the next update.

[HalfLifeExpert]

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

This has been added as an ASW doctrine setting for the next update.

SWEET! Good to hear!

This can revolutionize my gameplay of ASW operations

[PaulWRoberts]

3) Would it be possible to add a "hold/dispense sonobuoys" doctrine option for aircraft on ASW patrols? That way we could have them in the air but not dropping their buoys until we wanted them.

This has been added as an ASW doctrine setting for the next update.

Great to hear!

I love this game.

[Correcaminos]

This is greath !! Thanks.

[Mark352]

Jeffrey Pelt: Mr. Ambassador, you have nearly a hundred naval vessels operating in the North Atlantic right now. Your aircraft has dropped enough sonar buoys so that a man could walk from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland without getting his feet wet. Now, shall we dispense with the bull?
Ambassador Lysenko: You make your point as delicately as ever, Mr. Pelt.

-- The Hunt for Red October