Why Foreign Units Should Appear in Spain

[Q-Ball]

Playing the Nationalists, one of the major requirements is shipping most of the CTV from Naples to Spain. (Some units appear in Spain, but most have to be shipped from Naples).

My opinion, in general, is that ALL foreign units should simply appear in Spain without the requirement of being shipped. This would mostly help the Nationalists in 1937, as most German and Soviet units "Appear" in Spain (though some of each have to be shipped). For both sides, most aircraft simply "Appear" in Spain, with some exceptions.

Why should all units appear? Several reasons:

1. The decision to have some units "Appear" and some require shipment is a bit random. Seems like they should all be shipped, or all "appear". Why the difference?
2. For ITALY, there is not a single documented instance of an Italian Merchant ship attacked by a unit of the Republican Navy during the entire war. (An AMC was hit in an air raid at Mallorca in 1937, but that's it). Politically, the Republic was reluctant to aggressively attack Italian Merchant vessels, because they feared more direct intervention by Mussolini, and were wary of reaction by the British to hostile moves. This was also because the Republican Navy in general was paralyzed by lack of leadership (I don't propose that in-game, it would be too boring)
For these reasons, the Italian Units shoudl show-up in Spain without incident, as they did historically
3. There WERE instances of Soviet-flagged vessels attacked at sea, most notably the 1936 incident where CA Canarias sank the freighter Komsomol. Of course, the Italians aggressively attacked all Soviet and Republican shipping via SUBMARINE, denying all along they were doing it until it was just too obvious (then the Nyon Agreement in 1937)
4. German Merchant ships were also not attacked at Sea at all

Historically, the CTV and Condor Legion were shipped to Spain without incident. Soviet advisors and aid mostly made it, with some interruption.

For these reasons, I think all foreign units should appear in Spain

In-game, it's more possible than IRL for the Republic to close the Med, making the CTV have to ship around Africa, which is not realistic/historical at all

If this was changed in-game, then I think much of the Italian'German Merchant shipping should also be removed

[Q-Ball]

To put a fine point on it, the folllowing items CANNOT be interdicted today:

1. PLANES: Both sides will receive Italian, German, and Soviet planes without any issue, no matter who controls the sea. This cannot be prevented.
2. WEAPONS: Tanks, Artillery, Rifles, Machine Guns.....all arms, basically, do NOT have to be shipped
3. SOME personnel on each side; Soviets IIRC only have to ship a couple airbase units.

What MUST be shipped:

1. SOME Italian Air Units: Not many, a couple it seems though
2. ITALIAN and GERMAN forces; about 1/2 the Condor Legion, and most of the CTV

Anything shipped can be stopped; the other stuff can't

ANOTHER NOTE: The Nationalist had an easier time regardless getting material shipped to them without interference, via Portgual.

France was pretty strict about not allowing material shipments to Republican Spain; some was delivered early in the war before the Blum government cut it off.

Portugal, on the other hand, freely allowed transshipment via the port at Lisbon. While the Salazar regime were supposedly NOT doing this, and they didn't ship anything large, significant quantities or arms, supplies, and other items were shipped overland from Portugal, as the Salazar regine actively supported the Nationalists.

[vinnie71]

I tend to agree with you on this matter especially because its next to impossible to escort convoys with anything meaningful except the Italian cruisers who tend to stay for a few days and then leave. The biggest issue that I've encountered was the Republican airforce which repeatedly hit such convoys as they crawled along the north African coast and hit ships left, right and centre with a precision in anti-shipping strikes that I'm not sure reflects the reality of that war.

One alternative could be to use the convoy system in such a way that once a convoy 'appears' in a port, once the three days elapse, would be replaced by a unit. Not sure that it can be implemented though....

[Q-Ball]

I tend to agree with you on this matter especially because its next to impossible to escort convoys with anything meaningful except the Italian cruisers who tend to stay for a few days and then leave. The biggest issue that I've encountered was the Republican airforce which repeatedly hit such convoys as they crawled along the north African coast and hit ships left, right and centre with a precision in anti-shipping strikes that I'm not sure reflects the reality of that war.

One alternative could be to use the convoy system in such a way that once a convoy 'appears' in a port, once the three days elapse, would be replaced by a unit. Not sure that it can be implemented though....

Check out my new AAR, where we are testing new Naval Rules; those Naval Rules would solve the problem, because you can just move units in "Neutral" ships that can't be sunk.

Also, if you were getting hit with Vildebeest torpedo bombers, they no longer have torps....so that problem is also solved.

You can still get attacked by bombers carrying bombs, but they are not as deadly

[Dali101]

I dare to contradict you.

And quite substantially.

The Italians and Germans were killing the Republican Spaniards very intensively. Literally wherever they could...
There is no difference between the tanker of the PZ Drohne group, the crew of the JU52 or the crew of the Admiral Scheer.
Everyone listened to Hitler and everyone fought and killed the Spaniards.
The surface units were deployed very carefully, mainly because there were few of them and the KM was afraid of the reaction of the RN.
It was certainly not out of some neutrality, as someone is trying to write here....

Moving combat units on vessels that cannot be sunk??
For God's sake... the dream of every dictator.
I haven't heard more stupidity in a long time....

And the Wildebeest?
I can assure you that they really had torpedoes
This is how the Spanish administration worked, if it bought something abroad, it was very comprehensive and complete.
If they bought a battleship (not a coastal defense ship), they bought it including the galley equipment and the Vickerts-Amstrong landing guns.
If they bought a 381mm CD gun (by the way, the Spanish administration strictly used the metric system, they didn't know any "3 pdr gun"), they bought it including all the accessories, spare barrels, ammunition, etc...
The idea that they would buy torpedo planes without torpedoes is completely unrealistic...

Of course, there is an intelligent way to present the TB Vildebeest as relatively harmless... you will see it soon.
The current armament with a 50 kg ASW bomb is the complete impotence of this small TB force. And I am quite surprised that you, as a Republican, praise it. Well, what can be done...

[Q-Ball]

On German belligerence.....I am in favor of the build we are testing, because aside from the bombardment of Almeria and the seizure of the Soviet Frieghter Komsomol, there isn't a single record of an offensive action by an Italian or German warship. And they did have plenty of opportunities.

On the Vildebeest....I am curious to see how they are nerfed a bit, but I cannot find a single instance of a torpedo attack by a Republican plane during the war. Not one. And those planes definitely didn't have torpedo hardpoints installed at the war's start. (In game, they do carry a 250KG bomb at-start, which is the best anti-ship bomb the Republic has)

I don't consider myself a Republican or Nationalists player, just want it to be historic/fair

[Dali101]

AD Wildebeest, I have quite detailed information on this.
They had torpedoes installed and were training with them.

The first squadron was in the advanced training phase.
The second squadron was in the initial training phase.
The third squadron was just being formed and did not really exist (but the aircraft for it did).
An uprising also broke out at the San Javier base.
It was suppressed, but several pilots were killed or fled.
Thus, both squadrons were decimated to approximately half their strength.

In this situation, the decision was made that the torpedoes would be removed and replaced with hangers for larger bombs.
(I would like to remind you that the aircraft had a load capacity of about 800 kg and one 250 kg bomb is not adequate).
In addition, the third member (navigator) was excluded from the crew, so the load capacity increased even more.
The decision to remove the torpedoes was of course due to the need to bomb ground targets. The second reason was that at this time the nationalist navy had only one larger ship - a light cruiser.
And maintaining about 20 expensive aircraft with torpedo armament for this reason seemed unnecessary.
The third reason was the lack of pilots with proper training, as I already mentioned in the introduction.
So yes, soon after the outbreak of the war the torpedoes went down and that was the end of TB.
After five years of research, I too am trying to make it historically accurate.
Which will be presented soon.

It is true that the torpedo attack is excessively accurate and effective. But it needs to be solved differently and elsewhere....
When the He-59 appears in a few months and they start torpedoing one republican ship after another, what will we come up with?