DOW Surprise effects Question with non-neutrals

[DMcCooey206]

Mostly a rules question - Italy is at war with France. CW DOWs Italy performs Naval moves to hunt IT ships and CPs at sea. in one instance IT NAV air is allowed to intercept moving CW ships, it appears it is allowed as there is a French SUB in the zone? Per RAW is the Interception really allowed by a Surprised MP? Following successful interception CW ships chose to fight through and because no French units included the fight through battle CW is awarded full DOW Surprise points. So this confirms IT is Surprised from DOW but seems to imply maybe being allowed to intercept and React Air, is a bug?

In another zone French SUB is in Sea Zone but choose not to commit and thus is not included in Naval battle that includes only Italian and CW ships. CW is not awarded any DOW surprise points in the ensuing Naval battle, is this the RAW? or is this a bug?

Same question when there happens to be a French CP in 0 box and/or French escorts in zero box, but not included in Naval battle, because both sides find with search rolls and only CW and IT units are involved in the battle, but CW is not again awarded DOW surprise points. Is this RAW? or is this a bug. Game version is V7.0.1

[Centuur]

Mostly a rules question - Italy is at war with France. CW DOWs Italy performs Naval moves to hunt IT ships and CPs at sea. in one instance IT NAV air is allowed to intercept moving CW ships, it appears it is allowed as there is a French SUB in the zone? Per RAW is the Interception really allowed by a Surprised MP? Following successful interception CW ships chose to fight through and because no French units included the fight through battle CW is awarded full DOW Surprise points. So this confirms IT is Surprised from DOW but seems to imply maybe being allowed to intercept and React Air, is a bug?

In another zone French SUB is in Sea Zone but choose not to commit and thus is not included in Naval battle that includes only Italian and CW ships. CW is not awarded any DOW surprise points in the ensuing Naval battle, is this the RAW? or is this a bug?

Same question when there happens to be a French CP in 0 box and/or French escorts in zero box, but not included in Naval battle, because both sides find with search rolls and only CW and IT units are involved in the battle, but CW is not again awarded DOW surprise points. Is this RAW? or is this a bug. Game version is V7.0.1

First situation:
RAW, 15,1:
Aircraft units
Surprised aircraft units cannot fly any mission that is exclusively
against units controlled by major powers declaring war. Therefore, in
the surprise impulse they can’t (...):
• fly into a sea area if the only enemy units there are those enemy
major powers’.

So: no bug, since the French are already there.

Second and third situation:

RAW, 15.1
Naval units
If a port attack or a naval combat at sea only involves units controlled
by major powers declaring war, and the major powers they are
declaring war on, the surprised units always get 0 surprise points.

RAW, 11.5.5
In this rule, units are included in the combat after the search rolls. Not involved.

French units are involved in the combat, since there is always a chance that they get included (notice: different words) in the resulting combat. So: no bug.

[DMcCooey206]

Thanks that makes sense. What seemed strange is the IT unit at Sea were allowed to intercept CW units moving through/entering. Would that not be the case if there was no French units already in the sea area? It is apparently the case from testing, that since for Interception rolls the French can't be included in an interception fight through battle the IT Are Surprised and receive no Surprise points. As noted French are not included in the combat.

Presumably if the CW stops and doesn't fight through in the example, and then later that on that Naval phase there is a Search the IT will not be surprised as there are French in the zone. Seems to be RAW consistent though not logical, but that's ok

So the questions are is Naval interception always permitted, even if the intercepting power is Surprised? or only permitted in the limited case where prior enemy units happen to be in the zone?

Last Question are Convoy points counted as units in these cases. If France has only Convoys and no Ships, planes or Subs, does that also nullify DOW Surprise affects to Italy here? And if French non-CP units are allowing naval interception, would French CPs only also allow IT naval interception?

[DMcCooey206]

Peter, I have an update from add'l tests. The French SUB by itself does not Nullify DOW Surprise, because the decision to commit is prior to Search rolls. So that is from a practicality stand point good news. What is causing the nullification is French Surface ships as escorts in 0 box, or the CPs or both.

[paulderynck]

According to the rules, the Italian units are surprised in a naval/naval air combat if no French units are included in that combat. So it depends what the search rolls produce.

For example Italy finds and neither the CW or French find. Italy would be wise to choose a box where only French units reside and there would be no surprise.

If just the CW finds, they would get surprise.

If both the French and CW find, there would be no surprise.