Global Copy (Apply Data) bug for 2 right-hand techs

[Elessar2]

I've strongly suspected this for months, after weird errors kept sneaking in the 2nd tech, just caught it in the act:

Tech menu, Automatic Increments
Tech Slot 15 (actually 16th as slot 1 is numbered 0 internally), Infantry Warfare in the base game
Make a change in say movement points or morale or such for a given unit, for the UK (1st country)
Go to the Apply Data menu, Select All for country Targets, choose the same unit from the previous step for Select Data, hit Ok
Go and look at that same unit in Slot 16 (Armored Warfare in the base game)
If you had made prior changes here, they will be overwritten by the actions above, usually becoming zeroes since most values are zeroes by default.

This affected my Slot 16 as that is where my ground units get extra builds from, and specifically the Build Limit field, natch. I'd have carefully edited all of those builds, went to another right-hand slot, used the Apply Data function, would go back later to Slot 16, and see that the values I had inputted there (manually as every country has different values) would have been all changed mysteriously to the same value, requiring another long series of edits to fix them all. it also showed up in Slot 21 when I made changes to I think Slot 20 (21 is where my Air Units get extra builds).

This kind of leakage may also be an issue with other right-hand slots or other fields, didn't test for all possible combos.

[welk]

Curious thing.

I tried to reproduce what you explain and the result was different what you say :

My steep were that :

---1/ In Storm in Europe campaign, I selected EDIT RESEARCH ant then ADVANCED/UPGRADES/AUTOMATIC INCREMENTS
---2/ I selected UK (country) and ARMY (target) and I modified values of INFANTRY WARFARE and ARMORED WARFARE like that :

INFANTRY WARFARE: Action points = 15 Morale Boost = 100 (all other values= 0)
ARMORED WARFARE : Action points = 5 Morale Boost = 5 Build limite = 5 (all other values = 0)


---3/ Then, I selected APPLY DATA
For Country I selected "all"
For Data I selected only "ARMY"

Then I cliked "ok"


---4/ The result is that :
For all countries, I keep the values I set above in ARMY/INFANTRY WARFARE and ARMY/ARMORED WARFARE

No any corruption of any values : I keep my original exact values for ARMORED WARFARE :
Action points = 5 Morale Boost = 5 Build limite = 5 (all other values = 0)


Perhaps did I not correctly understanded what you wanted explain.


Please, could you re-explain like I did : step by step, in simple-basic-elementary way, to be sure to be clearly understanded


I am highlly interrested to clearly understand what you mean, because I use very oft this "apply data" function and I prefer to know eventual risk of pb or bugs in this function

[welk]

I think I understand now what exactly you mean : I retried to test and I did the same I said above, but in addition, I set for France / ARMY / ARMORED WARFARE these values :

Action points = 6
Morale boost = 60
Build limit = 6

And after I made the process you describe, I noticed that effectively, the problem you describe occured : all my values for France / ARMY / ARMORED WARFARE were modified : the new values for France/ ARMY /ARMORED WARFARE were the values of UK /ARMY /ARMORED WARFARE and no more my original values

But I think it's a normal effect of the tool : when you choice "select all" for country and "ARMY", you give this order to the programm : "Change all values of "ARMY" for All countries : the program makes no any distinction between the values it does modify, it modify ALL the values of ARMY (even you have modified only infantry warfare for UK / Army, the tool APPLY DATA does consider that you want also export all values of Uk / Army)

If the tool would have a supplementary column in the tool, we would be able to select that :
Country = All
Target unit type = Army
Techn target type (third supplementary column, that actually do not exist) = Infantry warfare, armored warfare, etc

With this 3d column, the APPLY DATA tool would only apply techn types we selected, in place to apply all techn types

But we have not this third additionnal column : to select all countries and to select army does modify for all countries all values for Army, without distinction between techn.

The pb comes from this situation :
=> In the editor, we have 3 columns to modify parameters (in the particular case : Country, unit target, techn target
=> In the APPLY DATA tool, we have only 2 columns to export parameters : Country, unit target


Probably, Hubert was tired when he worked on this part of the tool (or perhaps, he had trunk too much whisky with Bill... )

Hubert : I hope the whisky was good...
I do not ask Bill about that : We're stressing him out so much with our modding questions that he drinks whatever he can find

[Hubert Cater]

Hey Elessar,

If I understand the issue, and if I understand what Welk has also surmised here, I believe Welk is correct, the apply data, takes the current data and applies it throughout overwriting it everywhere with the current data.

This just means if let's say I have selected UK, Garrison, and Armored Warfare, and set the Action points to 1, from 0, then whatever other values the UK Garrison has, e.g. the Attack Increments, the Defense Increments and so on, all of it for the current UK Garrison etc., will apply to all other country Garrisons and overwrite whatever data they may have.

If there was indeed a third option to select just specific data, like let's say just the Action points, and apply only Action points throughout, then this would maybe give you what you are after here?

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

Too funny on the whiskey Welk

[BillRunacre]

I do not ask Bill about that : We're stressing him out so much with our modding questions that he drinks whatever he can find

There are some limits to what I'll drink, or at least there used to be!

[welk]

Hey Elessar,

If I understand the issue, and if I understand what Welk has also surmised here, I believe Welk is correct, the apply data, takes the current data and applies it throughout overwriting it everywhere with the current data.

This just means if let's say I have selected UK, Garrison, and Armored Warfare, and set the Action points to 1, from 0, then whatever other values the UK Garrison has, e.g. the Attack Increments, the Defense Increments and so on, all of it for the current UK Garrison etc., will apply to all other country Garrisons and overwrite whatever data they may have.

If there was indeed a third option to select just specific data, like let's say just the Action points, and apply only Action points throughout, then this would maybe give you what you are after here?

Hubert

In fact, what we would need is exactly that (attached image) :

APPLY DATA.jpg (477.88 KiB) Viewed 247 times

=> Just a third column for "techn types" in the APPLY DATA function
When we modify data, we have 3 columns : Coutries, unit types, techn types
But when we want to export our modification with precisions (and juste these modifications), we can do it With precision for country and for unit type, but we can not do it with precision for techn type because the third column is missing in APPLY DATA screen : we can choice a certain country and a certain unit type, but we can not choice the techn type. The consequence is that all techn type for the concerned country and the concerned unit type are exported by the APPLY DATA function.

To add this third column would be perfect.

Another 4° column concerning precise data in each techn type (action points, moral, etc) would be also nice, but it would probably cost lot of programing work for a little advantage.

I suggest we all chip in to get Hubert and Bill a good bottle of whisky (and maybe, a bit of cocaine so they can code faster).

[Elessar2]

I just want to make this explicit (I appreciate Welk doing some testing of his own, but there may be a language issue here as I find it hard to follow his trains of thought-for example not sure what exactly he means by "techn types"): the issue isn't that the Apply Data function in question applies all data, in the current tech, for the current unit to other countries (that is understood and expected). For example, if I change the Demoralization of an Infantry Corps from 5 to 10 in Infantry Warfare, sure, I fully get that all the other values will also be copied over as well to every country I select, for the SINGLE tech I am currently working in: Spotting (Land), Action Points, Build Limit, etc.

The issue is that said data LEAKS from the current tech to other techs that I am NOT currently working on.
So I am not sure you grasp the issue when you say "overwriting it everywhere", as ideally it should ONLY overwrite data FOR THE CURRENT TECH ONLY. If it were to "overwrite it everywhere", as in ALL right-hand techs simultaneously, well that would be a major issue, wouldn't it. It appears however that these leaks are limited to a few data fields however. Welk seems to grasp this, I think, as he indicates the interface should have an additional column for tech types. But that's just the thing, it already does, as his pic clearly shows that the current tech has ALREADY been selected in the left-hand pic, so his suggestion would be redundant (tho I hope he made the issue crystal clear by doing so). The assumption on my part has always been that ONLY the data for the current tech that I have already chosen ("Select Upgrade") will be copied over, but that clearly is not the case for some fields.

[welk]

What you say is right : +1 for me

Just some (usefull, I think) precisions :

The columns in modification windows are:
Country
Unit types
Technology (in short : "techn") types (infantry warfare, naval wrfare, armored warfare, etc) : details of values are not concerned here (moral, actions points, strikes, etc) by the term "techn"


1- Ok, the third needed column does already exist in the modification tool (my capture, left part of the image)
2- ok, this3d column is efficient for modifications
3- But the real problem is that this 3d column in the modification window (left part of my capture image) is NOT efficient for export : to select this 3d column has effects for modifications in modification windows, but has no any effect when you use APPLY DATA window.
In other terms, the fact that a specific techn is selected in the modification windows has no any utility and no any effect when you go in APPLI DATA Windows : the program do not take in mind this selection, it does export all techn for the concerned unit (the program does consider that only country and unit types are selected, it does not take in mind that a specific "techn type" is selected in the windows modifications.---

Why ?---
The answer is below.---

4- Because there is no any 3d column in the APPLY DATA screen to oblige the program to take in mind the techn type that was selected in the modification windows. ---

In others terms, the fact thet you selected a specific techn type in the modification windows (by example : infantry warfare) does not interest the program APPLY DATE, it does ignore that because itself has not this 3d column : for the APPLY DATA program, this 3d column does not exist, even if this 3d column is selected in the modification windows.

In other terms, when you select the 3° column (techn types : warfare armor, infantry warfare, naval warfare, etc) in the modification windows (left part of my capture image), you have the simple illusion that program will take in mind this selection when you will use the APPLY DATA function, but it's just an illusion, nothing of that does occur : the APPLY DATA function does consider that this 3D column in modification windows is not selected

Conclusion : Hubert is a great crook in whisky bottles and a column thief
Please, Hubert and Bill : pay us back for the whisky and return us our columns !

In the attached image, what we just need is the third column in APPLY DATA windows (but we do not need the details of values : we need just 3 columns displayed in the APPY DATA windows, like that :

1- Simple liste of countries
2- Simple liste of unit types
3- Simple liste of technologies types (infantry warfare, naval warfare, etc) without no any values details


Value details are usefull in the MODIFICATION WINDOWS, but values details are not needed in APPLY DATA WINDOWS : we just need in APPLY DATA a third column with simple liste of technology types (infantry warfare, naval warfare, armored warfare, etc)

APPLY DATA.jpg (622.14 KiB) Viewed 161 times

[welk]

The assumption on my part has always been that ONLY the data for the current tech that I have already chosen ("Select Upgrade") will be copied over, but that clearly is not the case for some fields.

As I said, it was just an illusion, without no any efficiency : the fact that you select a specific technology in the 3d column of MODIFICATION windows has no any effect in the APPLY DATA windows : the program does consider that this 3d column is not selected.

When you select a country and a unit type in APPLY DATA screen, you indicate to the program the countries and the unit that will be concerned by the export process. But you have no any tool to indicate to the program the techn type that will be concerned by the export process, because the APPLY DATA WINDOWS does not remember that you have selected the 3d column in MODIFICATION WINDOWS

To be able to remember this fact, the APPLY DATA WINDOWS should have itself a 3d column (techn types) : by this way, you will be able to oblige APPLY DATA windows to remember that a specific techn type was selected in the MODIFICATION windows.

[welk]

The issue is that said data LEAKS from the current tech to other techs that I am NOT currently working on.

100% in accord with you.

But in fact, it's not a bug, it's the normal process of the program, because some instructions are missing in the program : The APPLY DATA process has no any order from Hubert to remember you have selected a technology type (i.e infantry warfare, etc) in the 3d column in MODIFICATION windows.

Exemple :
At this time, if I select UK + Army + Infantry warfare in MODIFICATION Windows, and if after my modifications I left-click on APPLY DATA and then I select France + Army, all techn types of France (and not just infantry warfare) will receive (by exportation) values that are set for UK/ARMY
As consequence, to export to France values of "UK / ARMY / INFANTRY WARFARE" does export to France / Army all settings of all techn made for UK / ARMY (and not only settings for Infantry warfare)

If we would have a third column in APPLY DATA function (Third missing column = liste of techn : infantry warfare, naval warfare, armored warfare, etc) : we could in the same case select in APPLY DATA windows : "France + Army + Infantry warfare", and in this case, the export process would only concern values of Infantry warfare



Conclusion of Police attornay investigations : Hubert and Bill did forget to give this order to the program because they did not forget to drink the whisky
Or perhaps, Hubert did a confusion between columns and whisky bottles

3whisky.jpg (76.36 KiB) Viewed 138 times

[Hubert Cater]

Too funny, I believe I've just been memed here

Elessar, I read through this again, and in the end the assessment is correct, since the ability to dig down and just select which upgrade type should apply when using 'Apply Data' does not yet exist, it takes everything from let's say UK -> Tanks, e.g. including all the different research category settings for Tanks, e.g. from Command and Control to Industrial Technology, and just applies that to every other country's Tanks values.

This will feel like a leak since it overwrites any custom values you may have set for Tanks for a specific category for another country etc

[Elessar2]

I still am having a difficult time following welk's explanations, but I think he grasps the issue.

This seems to me to be a major issue, and I'm not sure you grasp the large can of worms it opens up, as unsuspecting modders will go in and try to make their own changes in the right-hand techs, only to find the techs they are NOT currently trying to edit are being affected as well. I would thus hope this programming loophole is closed up in an update before the end of the year, as right now I am forced to edit each country manually for all right-hand techs lest this issue ends up corrupting my data.

[welk]

In my opinion, it's also a major issue : after he has selected something in the third column ("technology" column) of MODIFICATIONS WINDOWS (i.e INFANTRY WARFARE), user of editor have effectively the impression that this selection will be ALONE concerned by export, but it's not true.

If there are 3 columns in the MODIFICATION WINDOWS, we should find also 3 columns in APPLY DATA WINDOWS.

Or 3 bottles, if Hubert does prefer