Naval support - what is it?

[LGKMAS]

Okay, been playing for the last 8+ years, always Allied against the AI. I have tried to work out what Naval Support actually means. I know it says that one Naval support = 10 extra cargo handling. What does that mean?
Assume a Level 2 Port. cargo unloads at 200 per phase or 400 per day. Max cargo allowed unloaded for the whole port that day is 6250. Also assume 10 Naval Support Points.
Also assume I have 8 x 1600 tonnage xAKLs, who all have a capacity of 1700 tons, which maxs out the port capacity. A Player table of port capacity (sorry, downloaded it years ago and don't know whose it is) has " Cargo Handling" only on the tonnage unloaded per day.
So what does this mean?

1. It means each ship can unload at 10 Naval Spt points *10 = 100 extra cargo unloaded that day per ship? So a 25% increase per ship. Very useful for the smaller ships, in the smaller ports, not so much when the ships get larger and the ports get larger as well. But it does mean the cargo can be unloaded just over 3 days as opposed to the normal 5 days. useful in the forward areas when you want to get in, unload and get out.
or

2. It means the total Port unloading capacity is now 6250 + 10*10 = 6350 tons per day? So the ships in port can unload another 100 tons a day or about 13 extra tons per ship. Not exactly world shattering, is it?

Comments please?

[Yaab]

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As far as I understand, Naval Support cannot boost port's TOTAL cargo handling capacity.

[Sardaukar]

Also helps with repairs, by creating extra Repair Points.

[BBfanboy]

Your question is somewhat confusing because you bring in ship tonnage. That is used in determining if a ship will fit within the docking capacity which has two checks - maximum capacity (total ship tonnage) and maximum for a single ship (i.e. if the water is deep enough for a ship to reach the dock).
A ship must be docked to get the max 400 tons per day. Ships that cannot be docked get a much smaller amount unloaded. From the original manual section 6.3.3.2.5:

Undocked TFs. TFs that are not docked can still perform load and
unload operations (using lighters from the port and/or landing craft
from ships in the TF). Loading/Unloading rates are significantly
reduced and a separate “undocked cargo handling” limit is imposed
to limit load/unload in each turn. If at all possible, it is best to
ensure TFs can be docked for load and unload operations.

I have always assumed that those Naval Support squads can help load/unload lighters as well as docked ships so they can help the port reach max load capacity (what can be hauled from the docks daily).
I checked the US Port Service Detachments and they have 30 NS squads. That's an additional 300 points of cargo/troop handling.

Then there are the different load/unload rates for Amphibious TFs, Beaching Craft (like LSTs, Landing Craft and Barges) and specialized Amphib vessels like APA/LSIs, AKAs, and LSDs :

6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING
The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious
Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types,
or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits.
Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious
Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an “initial operations”
bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.
Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and
amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two
situations.
6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH
This is for assault unloading over the beach.
»» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.
»» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.
»» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.
»» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.
»» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.
6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT
For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is
slightly different for Troops and Cargo.
»» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.
»» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.
»» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.
»» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.
Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port
size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with
attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

So Naval Support helps a bit but other factors may be more important. Japan does not seem to have dedicated NS units but has lots of ships that can be in a Fast Transport TF which unloads in one phase IIRC.
And NS helps with replenishing ammo on ships - each NS squad raising the replenishment ability by 5 points. (Manual section 20.1.2.2) That could make a difference to whether your carriers replenish sorties or not!

[chaos45]

The key thing for Japan is they can help ships load and unload faster this is esp important at the smaller ports they max out at low port levels as you can get extra cargo moved each turn by having naval support squads there.

[Yaab]

1. It means each ship can unload at 10 Naval Spt points *10 = 100 extra cargo unloaded that day per ship? So a 25% increase per ship.

It is actually 100 extra cargo per phase, so 200 extra cargo per turn.

[Chris21wen]

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As far as I understand, Naval Support cannot boost port's TOTAL cargo handling capacity.

They can't, your correct. There increase the rate, say half a day as opposed to a day which means more ships can be unloaded but the port still has a maximum handling capacity per day.

The other thing they do, and as far as I'm concerned, more important they enable devices to be handled that couldn't normally be handled. E.g. Big stuff at small ports or over the beech. (see 6.3.3.2.4 new manual).

They also help repairing ships and rearm ships.

[Sardaukar]

To add, and as said, you often need NS to unload big stuff in small ports.

Typical examples are Radars and Motorized Support.

[Moltrey]

To add, and as said, you often need NS to unload big stuff in small ports.

Typical examples are Radars and Motorized Support.

Yeah, you need as the US to cobble together at least a bit of Naval Support (Stevedores) and add them to your invasion TF in order to deal with smaller ports and large equipment, among other things like speeding up transfer of cargo.
I have found you end up grinding your teeth down the road at the pace of loading and unloading w/o them. Logistics is King!

[LGKMAS]

Okay, I understand the heavy unloading stuff.
But what does it mean per ship in normal cargo conditions?
I think we all agree that the upper limit on unloading per day per port is fixed. So a level 2 Port can only unload a max of 6250 per day.
But what does all this mean per ship?
First of all , is this bonus per phase or per day? I have assumed it is per phase, but please correct me if I am wrong.
So If I have a 1000 capacity ship at a level 2 port , which before NS , can unload 400 a day, so 5 phases or 2.5 days to unload. If I have 60 NS, that means 600 extra cargo per phase so the ship unloads at 400 base rate and 600 NS rate so can be unloaded in a day and be on its way?
And does this apply to all ships docked? So if I put a variety of ships into the port, docked and under the port limit, with various capacities, does this mean all of them unload at the 400 base rate and the 600 NS rate per day?
It really does have an impact in the early stages when most ports are a 1 or a 2 or, unbelievably a 3 level!

[Yaab]

In your example, the 600 unload (with NS) will apply to all ships DOCKED.

Undocked ships also get some small benefits to unloading from NS presence, but I don't have any exact numbers. Many times you will see ships unloading undocked in empty small ports level 1-2 with NS presence.

If all your available dock space is taken by unloading ships, and you still have even mores ships that have to unload undocked, those ships should also get some miniscule bonus from NS to unloading.

Notice that the in-game port manager docks and undock ships during a turn, so the additional unload rates may be smaller than you expect if you start running tests and do the maths.

[LGKMAS]

Hi Yaab
Sorry to push a point but as I once wrote technical manuals for a living, I need to make sure what we are talking about. Clarify was everything and any misreading was a lawsuit in the making.
When you say all ships, do you mean every ship docked gets the 600 extra ?
I would love to believe that but asking all the NS to unload all the ships docked at the same extra unload speed does seem rather slave driving. The E Port units with 10 NS per unit should therefore be able to unload 100 tons per ship regardless if they are in a port 2 or a port 9 and regardless of how many ships are in port. A port 2 port can dock 7 ships of tonnage 1700 with a capacity of 1750. A port 9 can dock 115 of the same ships. That means the 10 NS can unload an extra 700 from the port 2 per day and also unload an extra 11500 from the same ships but in a larger port without raising a sweat! WTF??
Yes, it may be a quick work around and as I said, I would love to believe it but simple workplace views seem to disallow it.
So maybe the original program writers intended to give NS a quick and easy fix to low level ports and did not follow it through to fully understand the implications?
Does anyone have an explanation or expansion on the thinking on this?

[Yaab]

Well, you would have to test the whole thing, but that how it should work.

Naval Support is a huge boon to unload rates.

I don't know if you use Tracker, the unload numbers are there.

Here is Canada (port 10, 0 naval support) - loads 2000 supplies per turn per ship.

Canada port 10.png (157.75 KiB) Viewed 286 times

Here is Pearl Harbor (port 7, 619 naval support) - loads 13780 supplies per turn ship (provided you can find an xAK with that much cargo capacity).

Pearl Harbor port 7.png (162.41 KiB) Viewed 286 times

[Yaab]

Or better still, Eastern USA (port 10, 500 naval support, no Light Industry that further boost unload rates) - loads 12000 supplies per ship per turn.

[BBfanboy]

My understanding (untested) is that the total loaded by naval support is for ALL ships, NOT PER ship. Realistically, even with better equipment at a port, NS could not handle ships totaling 100K tons docked the same as 10K tons docked.
When multiple ships are being loaded the efforts of NS are spread out over a number of ships and may not be evenly split so different ships may get different amounts loaded.

As for the miniscule amounts loaded or unloaded from undocked TFs, note the bolded text I quoted from the manual about ships having landing craft/boats gaining a boost in rates. So an APA or LSD with many more landing craft than other ships gets a better cargo/troop handing rate in port as well as during landings.

[Chris21wen]

I don't think naval support is working correctly. From the post here it appears to work in ports and on commercial loads but in tests I've just carried out some tests on amphibious TF unloading at a friendly dot base and it does nothing?

This is a heads up and I may be doing something stupid so I'm going to have to get back to you with this as it needs more testing.

[BBfanboy]

I interpret that as meaning the NS needs to have the tools available in ports to do their work. An amphib landing does not have docks, cranes, winches, cargo nets, carts etc.

[Chris21wen]

I've done some maths, hopefully correct!

Referring to section 6.3.3.2.4 again.

Looking at an unrealistic situation were only troops are loaded.
A docked ship in a level 2 port can handle 400 men in a 12 hr period. If the ship has a capacity of 1600 then it will take 2 days to load/unload.
The ports maximum handling capability per day is 2500 therefore the port could handle 6.25 identical ships simultaneously in the same period. It is not possible to increase the ports maximum handling capability but it can decrease from damage.
Now add in some 10 NS. Each NS squad represents 10 men with extra equipment that assist the port, increasing the handing speed by 10 for each NS squad. Therefore the total assistance provided by the 10 NS during a 12 hr period is 100, increasing the ports handling rate to 500 men in a 12 hr period. This is what a single ship would get resulting in it unloading in 1.6 days
However this total NS assistance is spread out across for all ships being handled by the port. In our example the increased handling rate for each ship is 100/6.25 = 16, so over a 12 hr period the handling rate is 416 men from each ship, that's approx. 1.9 days for each ship.

That scenario is unrealistic, no equipment but lets run another scenario were the same ships are only loaded with cargo (equipment or supply).
A docked ship in a level 2 port can handle 200t cargo (equipment or supply) in any 12 hr period. As the handling rate is half that of troops everything takes twice a long. If the ship has a capacity of 1600 then it will take 4 days to load/unload.
With the same number of NS squads each ship gets the same handling increase as with the troops 16. Therefore over a 12 hr period they could unload 216t in a 12 hr period. Taking 3.7 days load/unload.

Realistically ships have a mixed load so the handling rate for six, 1600t ships with at level 2 port with 10NS is somewhere between 1.9-3.7 days.
If you increase the NS to 100 squads, the ports handling rate increase by a 1000, that's an increase of 1000/6.25 =160 per ship. Troops are now handled at a rate of 400+160 =560, approx. 1.4 days for all six ships.

All this is assumes nothing else happens at the port during handling period.

NS squads don't make a great deal of difference to the handling speed of ports but they do make a difference as to what can be handled in a port.

Not made clear from the table is the unload rates for cargo is also the limiting size for any device being be handled by the port.
All devices have a load cost. If this load cost is > the cargo rate it cannot be handled by the port. Basically the cranes aren't big enough. This is were NS excel. Those miserly 10NS can help unload devices the port could not normally handle, device with a load cost of 200 for port 1 or 300 for port 2 etc. Of course if they are doing that they can't also be assisting elsewhere.