Naval support - what is it?

[Chris21wen]

Thanks Joe.

I was using 86.4. Are these fixes after this as I've not seen one to download?

[RangerJoe]

Thanks Joe.

I was using 86.4. Are these fixes after this as I've not seen one to download?

I honestly don't know. The latest for the public should be on the Matrix site to download. I don't have any other one myself.

[Chris21wen]

More NS unloading tests. See attached pdf.

My observations are.

1 Large devices cannot be unloaded at a friendly size 0 port. Naval support has no effect???
2 NS has no effect on the unload rate at friendly size 0 port.
3 Port size only affects friendly unload rates. Apart from a few very small anomalies they never affect unloading at an enemy base.
4 Large devices are always unloaded at a enemy size 0 port. Naval support is not needed???
5 NS has a marginal effect on the unload rate at an enemy size 0 port?
6 Port size has no effect on enemy unload rate. See port size 9 test.
7 Cargo (Cargo) unload rates appear very strange until I remembered the TF never automatically docked. The difference is apparent down to the ship entering and leaving a docked state each turn. This falls down when it comes to size 0 ports though?? Doing this costs operational points so less time to unload. See the manually docked test.

[Skyros]

Could the fact that you used amphibious rather then cargo or transport TF negated the affect NS would have?

[RangerJoe]

More NS unloading tests. See attached pdf.

My observations are.

1 Large devices cannot be unloaded at a friendly size 0 port. Naval support has no effect???
2 NS has no effect on the unload rate at friendly size 0 port.
3 Port size only affects friendly unload rates. Apart from a few very small anomalies they never affect unloading at an enemy base.
4 Large devices are always unloaded at a enemy size 0 port. Naval support is not needed???
5 NS has a marginal effect on the unload rate at an enemy size 0 port?
6 Port size has no effect on enemy unload rate. See port size 9 test.
7 Cargo (Cargo) unload rates appear very strange until I remembered the TF never automatically docked. The difference is apparent down to the ship entering and leaving a docked state each turn. This falls down when it comes to size 0 ports though?? Doing this costs operational points so less time to unload. See the manually docked test.

Some of those items I had previously covered.

In the case of the port size at an enemy base, do you think that the enemy would allow the use of their port facilities?

As far as amphibious unloading at an enemy base, different unloading protocols probably take place than unloading at a friendly base so the large devices might then be unloaded.

[Chris21wen]

In the case of the port size at an enemy base, do you think that the enemy would allow the use of their port facilities?

No there wouldn't and I never said they should. These tests were about the use of NS and it does help unload rates but the effects are minimal.

As far as amphibious unloading at an enemy base, different unloading protocols probably take place than unloading at a friendly base so the large devices might then be unloaded.

They are and the manual says that. My argument is NS is not being used to help unload large device at a friendly size 0 base when there's no requirement for any NS assistance to unload at an enemy base. All I'm doing is pointing this out. I just extended the test to see what happens at larger bases.

[Chris21wen]

Could the fact that you used amphibious rather then cargo or transport TF negated the affect NS would have?

Cargo or transport TF cannot unload at a dot base and they cannot use port facilities at an enemy base.

In a friendly port NS does help but the unload rates are different, per TF and not per ship as in an Amphib TF.

I did test a transport TF unloading at a enemy size 1 port with 70 NS but the TF was deeply reluctant to remain in place to complete its unloading. I gave it an escort of 5x BB, 5x CL, 10x DD and it always partially unloaded on the turn it arrived return home on the next turn. And yes, 'remain on station' was set before anybody asks.

[BBfanboy]

Could the fact that you used amphibious rather then cargo or transport TF negated the affect NS would have?

Cargo or transport TF cannot unload at a dot base and they cannot use port facilities at an enemy base.

In a friendly port NS does help but the unload rates are different, per TF and not per ship as in an Amphib TF.

I did test a transport TF unloading at a enemy size 1 port with 70 NS but the TF was deeply reluctant to remain in place to complete its unloading. I gave it an escort of 5x BB, 5x CL, 10x DD and it always partially unloaded on the turn it arrived return home on the next turn. And yes, 'remain on station' was set before anybody asks.

The key things to make a TF follow orders under threat of enemy attack are Threat Tolerance setting (Absolute) and TF leader aggression (30+ for merchantmen).

[Chris21wen]

Did all those test so why is my transport TF not unloading it's devices and taking twice as long? The TF is too big to dock, but the individually ships could. All my test showed that the devices unloaded at a level 1 friendly port in this situation but these didn't. I went back and re-tested and they did in the test???

Turns out the clue is in the word docked. In all my tests the ships in the undocked TF could have docked individually. In my problem I already had an ASW TF docked in the port, it's total tonnage a little over 5000t. A port level 1 has 6000t pier space so the amount of free space was only 1000t below the minimum dock space that any of my xAK needed. The ships were too big to fit into this 1000t docking space so were unloading at crawl and incapable of unloading anything other than troops or supply. The stuff not unload were 37mm AA (7), 155mm how (25), 8in gun (31) or the Motorised supply (15).

The problem is it is not just the port size that governs the ability to unload, but the free docking space. I don't know the exact unloading rules and I'm not going to try and work them out but you'll get some idea from this.

The test
1 ASW with 4x DD with doctored tonnage (1500t each) docked at Lania. Used as a means of controlling docking space.
A single 1x xAK (6100t) transport TF loaded with the exact same hybrid unit as my other tests. 3x AT (7), 3x 155mm how (25), 3x 8in gun (31), 6x mot support (15), 6x support (12) the rest supply (1). Figures in brackets are the load costs. Too big to dock either as a TF or ship.

Ran the same test five time varying the number of DD docked starting with all docked, 0 free space

With all DD docked 0 free space - Only troops from support and supply unloaded (1). The rate of unload was a mere 20 per turn, 10 per phase below the space required to unload anything other than troops and supply.
3 docked giving 1500 free space - The 37mm AA (7) and supply now unloaded at a rate of roughly 64 per turn, 32 per phase. The presence of just 1 NS enabled this device to unload.
2 docked giving 3000 free space - now the mot sup (15) and supply unloaded at a rate of 110 per turn, 55 per phase
1 docked giving 4500 free space - 155mm how (25) and supply unloaded at a rate of 154 per turn, 77 per phase
0 docked giving 6000 free space - 8in gun (31) and supply unloaded at a rate of 160 per turn, 80 per phase.

When I tried a port level 2 the minimum unload rate was 40, and 60 for a level 3. I'm assuming therefore that the minimum rate for TF that cannot dock as opposed to undocked is port size x 20 per turn. A docked transport at a level 1 port can unload cargo at a rate of 200 per turn, that's a whooping 90% rate reduction per turn when there's no free space docking space, only 10% of a docked TF. With max free space (6000t here) but still unable to dock the ship due to size the unload rate rises to 80% of docked level.

The only reference in the manual to this is section 6.2.15 Docking '....Ships can load and unload cargos when not docked (via lighters) but at a much slower rate'. Your not kidding, a tenth of the rate for a docked transport TF at a level 1 port, 100 per phase according to section 6.3.3.2.4.

I also tested an amphib TF and it was also restricted in a similar way, however it's unload rates where 100,108,200,288 and 320 per turn, some weird numbers and I do not know why? According to the manual a docked merchant unloading at a friendly port should unload at a rate of 125 per ship per turn. This is not hat I found it's 200.

On devices
The load cost of a device is not the cargo space need by a ship to carry it. It's used to categorise the device into sizes nad it is these sizes that determine the cargo space required. Take the 37mm AA its load cost is 7. From section 6.3.2.1 Load types it classed as medium equipment.

If you now look at 6.3.2.3 Capacity Usage, medium equipment has a cargo space requirement of 2x load cost, or 14. In practical terms this means to unload the 37mm the unload rate per phase must be at least 14. This is why a 'cannot' dock ship in transport TF will never unload it at a port level 1, it's rate is only 10. Throw 1 NS (+10) port assistance the unload rate becomes 20 and it can.

Devices always unload from smallest first starting with troops.

One further thing, for every troop or piece of equipment unloaded, some supply was also unloaded. There's seems to be two reasons for this and neither a surprise.

• To ensure the unit has supply in the coming phase, very important for in an invasion.

• To pad out the unload rate when there's no more devices small enough to unload. In the example of the 37mm + 1NS above, it could unload 6 supply as well as the 37mm each phase.

In conclusion, the unload rate for a ship that cannot dock varies between 10-80% of the normal unload rate of a docked ship dependant upon the free docking space.

Hope all this makes sense.

[Yaab]

Chris21wen, many thanks for the tests.

I remember the devs saying that even if a TF is undocked due to port docking limits, the code will take a ship from a TF, dock it and unload it (provided the port has some free docking space), while players see the whole TF as undocked at all times.