Al Kibar strike 2007 (for testing)

[Mark352]

Has the scenario been played outside of the editor? I asked because using flight plans won't work properly with the No-Nav Zones in game mode, but will work properly in editor mode. In game mode aircraft linger at WP2/3 and won't proceed. In editor mode, they move as they should. I'm trying to use flight plans that move up the Med between Lebanon and Cyprus.

I realize I can delete them but, I figure you want them there to keep the player honest.

I'm currently using v1.10 Beta - Build 1892, playing the DB 517 version.

Thanks for building this scenario out.

[Knightpawn]

Release version - here with DB517

[Knightpawn]

Has the scenario been played outside of the editor?

In all honesty...no (not by myself at least)

[Nikel]

I have played the scenario only in the editor.

But the bug you comment is happening in B1900?

In B1892 it seems to work in normal play. What does not work is the path of the tankers, etc, that have no flightplan. They will not ascend beyond Lebanon.

Knightpawn, I have not played v1.0 yet, but noticed that when you load the scenario Nevatim AB has a plotted course and the message log is not clean.

[Knightpawn]

Strange. Thanks

[Nikel]

May you try to reduce the size of the NNZ? Right now they also include sea, not only land.

Perhaps this will help CMO with the flightplans and pathfinding.

[Nikel]

I have changed the RPs of Lebanon NNZ in the water and moved them near the land, and the tankers, etc will not get stuck. This solution works playing outside of the editor in B1892.

I have also noticed that the Syrian side shooting down Turkish F-16s still happens in v1.0, and the -200 points are still assigned to the Israeli side.

[Knightpawn]

I have also noticed that the Syrian side shooting down Turkish F-16s still happens in v1.0, and the -200 points are still assigned to the Israeli side.

You make everybody angry and they shoot each other. Consider making that call to Turkey to see if things may get better

[Nikel]

I am trying to get the triumph with FPs in the strike mission without success so far because the MiGs may intercept you in the Mediterranean when returning, and also because for some reason your bombers will not launch all the bombs to the targets, even though "Engage until Winchester" is selected in the targets tab, any idea why?


Some more stuff noticed in this testing of v1.0:

- Hazerim typo, should be Hatzerim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzerim_Airbase


- When you execute the SA, the message that you cannot contact Turkey anymore also appears, as if you had not contacted.

- The only change noticed is that they can send fighters to intercept you or not. The Syrians still may shot them down. The Syrians may be told by the Turkish apparently, but this is rare, this will cause a complete failure because they are waiting for you.

- Also rarely the Turkish side will be hostile to you.

- The Turkish side may also suffer losses due to lack of fuel. And of course the -200 points are also assigned to the player

TFP.png (56.29 KiB) Viewed 471 times

- As historically, this operation is impossible without OECM, however jamming is not enough. Comms jamming is essential. This "zombify" the MiGs and if you are lucky they will let you alone.

- Right now there is no problem entering Turkish airspace. The trick for the Syrian airspace is to enter it as late as possible, so that you can bomb the site without being molested by MiGs.

- The Patriot batteries should be pointing to the N. Of course this can be done by the player outside of the editor. Anyway they seem to have problems identifying the MiGs as hostile, perhaps a AEW AC with radar is needed in Israel.

[Knightpawn]

Thanks

1. The special action has high chances of deactivating Turkish intercept but also low chances of Turkey backstabbing you and letting Syria know about your intentions and set up a CAP as a result.
2. I have introduced a no fly zone for Turkey over Syria but Turkish pilots are disobedient. I will arrange so that Syria designates them as unfriendly and not shoot them
3. I have no idea why Turks they dont just RtB at bingo - I will check
4. Comms jamming is on
5. You can designated the migs a hostile for the patriots

I am waiting to resolve the issue with the steam updates and will update then

[Nikel]

OK, thanks.


3. I think that this time it was the same reason that cause the losses of the MiGs, out of comms. It has only happened 1 time.

4. Yes, I know. It was just a comment, your scenario reflects perfectly that without electronic warfare, is just impossible

5. Yes, but this time I wanted to do everything automatically. They will only fire when the MiGs are already designated hostile by attacking your bombers first.


Any idea why the bombers will not release all the bombs in a strike mission? Is it happening to you?


This is my best result with v1.0 and everything automatic, except rotating the Patriot or it will not engage a MiG coming from the N.

Average with 80 points due to the bombers releasing only 9 of the 16 bombs.

AS OF: 05-Sep-07 22:39:21

SIDE: Israel
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
9x GBU-31(V)3/B JDAM [BLU-109/B]
1x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x MIM-104C Patriot PAC-2



SIDE: Syria
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Building (Electric Sub Station)
1x Building (Guard Post)
1x Building (Pump House)
11x MiG-23ML Flogger G


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
8x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
6x SA-14 Gremlin [9M36]



SIDE: Turkey
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

[Nikel]

Finally got a triumph in v1.0 with 320 points, but not the automatic way I wanted.


- Destroying the targets. For some reason engage until Winchester is not enough. Adding the "Target destroyed continue the mission" and in the ROE "Opportunity scrambling", more bombs will be released, but still not all. They even may be not enough due to the misses.

- RTB. A lot of problems in the Mediterranean to safely land all the ACs, there are always MiGs there, the out of comms is where is sending them. The solution is to RTB all the way around Cyprus, I did this manually and as you are accompanied by tankers, there is no problem of fuel.

- The Turkish F-16s were attacked, but no losses.

- To avoid all the problems with the Turkish ACs, when they take off to identify you, they remain there to much time after. If they consider you not a threat, is not better to send them to their base instead of remain airborne?

AS OF: 05-Sep-07 23:03:57

SIDE: Israel
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
11x GBU-31(V)3/B JDAM [BLU-109/B]



SIDE: Syria
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Building (Electric Sub Station)
1x Building (Guard Post)
1x Building (Pump House)
7x MiG-23ML Flogger G
1x Underground Hardened Bunker


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
20x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
1x AA-8 Aphid [R-60M]
6x SA-14 Gremlin [9M36]
6x SA-2d Guideline Mod 2 [S-75 Volga, 20D / V-755]



SIDE: Turkey
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x AIM-120B AMRAAM
1x AIM-9M Sidewinder
2x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

[Knightpawn]

Someone from the IAF will contact you in the next few days with an offer

[Nikel]

Someone from the IAF will contact you in the next few days with an offer

Thanks, but I prefer that you post v1.1

[Knightpawn]

Someone from the IAF will contact you in the next few days with an offer

Thanks, but I prefer that you post v1.1

Your wish is my command.
Basically Turkish a/c in Syia's exclusion zone are treated as unfriendly and not hostile
Also collective responsibility is off for Israel. Thus Syria will chase only the intruders and will not attack the support elements over Med

[Nikel]

Thanks for the new version


A few problems in a fast look.


- Still Hazerim not Hatzerim.

- The Patriots' radars are already ON when you start the scenario.

- Lebanon NNZ still includes the sea, as commented above this creates a problem with the path of the tankers, etc and will circle. In v1.0 I edited this so they could proceed. In B1892 only happens in normal play, does not happen in the editor.

NNZ L.gif (3.19 MiB) Viewed 370 times

[Knightpawn]

Fixed the spelling and reduced the Lebanon Zone. Radars are on on purpose - they wont fire deep into Syria because of 50% max distance WRA

[Nikel]

OK, I posted that because they were OFF in v1.0 when the scenario start, and they activated with the mission you created.

Anyway they are pretty useless protecting the returning bombers, due to the short range. They are using their own missiles for self defense over the Mediterranean.


Some more comments testing with v1.1

- Better results with the reactor, modifying the WRA of the bombs, to x2 or x4 the target missile defense value and 4 shooters per salvo, and in the targets tab "Targets destroyed: continue mission".

- To avoid out of comms and fuel losses for the Turkish I am trying to reduce the time of the OECM mission. They may still happen though.

- Also noticed that the Turkish may engage the Syrian MiGs.

TvsS.png (63.67 KiB) Viewed 323 times

This is an example of Triumph with 320 points.

In this case the Patriots were fired to some MiGs trying to infiltrate Israel through the Golan, this very rarely happens.

The bombers had already landed, all of them, but some damaged fighting other MiGs in the Mediterranean

Only one refuel, I have not tried yet the all way around Cyprus in v1.1

AS OF: 05-Sep-07 22:39:17

SIDE: Israel
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
8x AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM P3I.2
16x GBU-31(V)3/B JDAM [BLU-109/B]
4x MIM-104C Patriot PAC-2
2x Python 4





SIDE: Syria
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x Building (Electric Sub Station)
1x Building (Guard Post)
1x Building (Pump House)
8x MiG-23ML Flogger G
1x Underground Hardened Bunker


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x 23mm Gsh-23L Burst [40 rnds]
13x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
3x AA-8 Aphid [R-60M]
9x SA-14 Gremlin [9M36]



SIDE: Turkey
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

[Nikel]

SPOILER ALERT


All the way around Cyprus is the way to go

Detached 2 of the tankers for a second refueling mission western Cyprus, with the activation time coordinated for the returning bombers.

Full plan in the screenshot below.



Things that still can go wrong and ruin the planned operation:


- The pesky Turkish becoming red when you are bombing the reactor, and they have followed you inside Syria (bug), this will ruin completely the operation.

- Even launching the 16 bombs may not be enough due to the random misses.

- Still MiGs may intercept you when you are returning, specially in N Syria. But this is rare.

- Bug refueling.

- Bug when you have set a deactivation time in a mission and they do not RTB.

O.png (186.58 KiB) Viewed 289 times

Stuff to fix:

- The RPs in the NNZ in Lebanon are visible after you edited them.

- This angle in the NNZ in western Cyprus may also cause trouble to the tankers, only in normal play, not in the editor.

WCA.gif (666.82 KiB) Viewed 281 times

[Mark352]

I like playing and experimenting with historical recreations. A scenario recreating Operation Orchard is right in my wheelhouse. It took several tries to achieve a victory. First attempt was failure with only 15 points. Another attempt I got 115 points. Finally I achieved major victory with 250 points. Destroyed the reactor, but lost one F-15 to an SA-5 just as the aircraft crossed the Syrian coast.

I tried to stay historically accurate and routed the strike package north between Lebanon/Syria and Cyprus where the first refueling was. The package crossed the Syrian coast and headed north towards the border, but avoided Turkish airspace. Then headed southeast past Tell Abyad. I did not include the Weasel package in the mission. The three F-15’s and four F-16’s launched their weapons destroying the reactor and the pump house.

All aircraft egressed along the same route, exited Syrian airspace, refueled again northeast of Cyprus and returned to base heading south. One challenging part for me was determining the refueling areas for the mission. I used flightplans for all missions during the scenario.

I played v1.1 using DB518 on Steam.

Overall a challenging scenario. I recommend it. I’ll certainly play it again.