Ground combat

[Chris21wen]

How does the game resolve both sides being given attack orders in the same hex.

The manual says this 'If both sides have been given attack orders, the Japanese attack is resolved first and then the Allied attack is resolved.' I think this means that Japanese attacks are carried before the allies and not the resolution of a battle.

I like to think unit that are attacking lose terrain and definitely fortification benefits but there is a sequence to ground combat so who fires first etc.

[RangerJoe]

I am sure that there is a sequence in the manual.

[Chris21wen]

Yes there is but it talks in terms attacker v defender. 8.4.2.1 Defender here could simply mean any unit on the end of the attack no matter what combat mode it's in.

But what determines which attacker would go first if both sides had units set to an attack? If it's the Japanese, as the manual suggests, then they will always have an advantage.

[RangerJoe]

The Japanese may not have the advantage since their units might get trashed during their attack.

[BBfanboy]

I'm pretty sure the game uses the starting state of both units when it is working out the attack results. I.E. , the Allied side strength at the start of their attack is what they had before the Japanese attack. The Japanese side during the Allied attack starts out without the battle fatigue and casualties it developed during its attack. That is the only way to fairly decide a simultaneous attack when you cannot do a volley by volley resolution.
After the results of both sides' attacks have been applied, the game decides morale, leadership etc. to see if either side will retreat or surrender.

PS - as RJ hints, unit for unit the Allied troops (except Chinese/Malayan/Burmese) have better firepower so units of the same level (company, battalion, regiment, division) fighting only (excluding artillery etc) equivalent enemy units with similar experience, morale and leadership gives an advantage to the Allies. The Japanese successes in the first six months are against units with poor supply, experience, morale and leadership so they sweep the board.

[Chris21wen]

I'm pretty sure the game uses the starting state of both units when it is working out the attack results. I.E. , the Allied side strength at the start of their attack is what they had before the Japanese attack. The Japanese side during the Allied attack starts out without the battle fatigue and casualties it developed during its attack. That is the only way to fairly decide a simultaneous attack when you cannot do a volley by volley resolution.
After the results of both sides' attacks have been applied, the game decides morale, leadership etc. to see if either side will retreat or surrender.

.....

That's the way I do it with one small caveat. I like to think that any unit in deliberate or shock mode would get no benefit from forts when on the end of an attack.

[Chris21wen]

Can someone tell me why there are two leader combat modifiers for the defender when there's no HQs within range?

Ground combat at Lunga (114,138)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 3876 troops, 26 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 127

Defending force 3421 troops, 80 guns, 8 vehicles, Assault Value = 118

Japanese adjusted assault: 73

Allied adjusted defense: 285

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)
Attacker: leaders(-)

Japanese ground losses:
583 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 42 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
124th Infantry Regiment

Defending units:
164th Infantry Regiment

[BBfanboy]

Perhaps the combat coding uses two of the Leaders' traits, like Leadership and Aggression or Inspiration and Aggression?

[Yaab]

Combat has fire phase and assault phase thus one unit can get two opposite modifiers?

[Chris21wen]

I didn't want to say but my thoughts were bombardment and assault but fire and assault makes more sense.

That does raise another question. What leader rating is used and what's it measured against to generate a positive or negative modifier. This result was under test with the leaders of the two units having identical stats, 50 across the board.

During this test, with both units set to deliberate attack the Japanese always went first. Which is what the manual says! It appear to me that the Japanese will always have the advantage when attacking first but as RangerJoe said this may not be the case. I can't put my finger on it but I'm still inclined to think they do!

[RangerJoe]

Pass one test and fail another . . .

[Chris21wen]

Pass one test and fail another . . .

Yes it could be as simple as that but sometime, actually more often than not, some combat modifiers do not appear, E.g The result of the same units.

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: leaders(-)

Only one leader mod, but with an experience mod instead. This was the one I was querying.

Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)
Attacker: leaders(-)

Th1s makes me believe they are three possible modifier states, Pass, no mod applied or fail? If (+) increase the AV, no mod it satays the same then a (-) should actually reduce the AV?

[BBfanboy]

Yes, a 'Supply-' modifier definitely reduces AV so I am sure the other modifiers with a '-' do the same. I have always assumed leaders are compared with each other rather than some neutral standard and that there is a randomizing modifier in the die roll to determine which one makes the best choices during the combat. Stats favour the better leader but even great leaders can guess wrong once in a while.

[Yaab]

I just repalyed one of the initiaa battles vs Japanese AI at Tsingsing and for the first time I had both leader (+) and (-), and this is the first time I lost more than 10 guns in this battle. 13 guns destroyed! Guess leader(-) may also influence your retreat/pursue "phase".

Ground combat at Tsingsing (90,40)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28266 troops, 281 guns, 101 vehicles, Assault Value = 905
Defending force 2557 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 112

Japanese adjusted assault: 653
Allied adjusted defense: 13

Japanese assault odds: 50 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsingsing !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), leaders(-), preparation(-) experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
152 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1942 casualties reported
Squads: 71 destroyed, 27 disabled
Non Combat: 25 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled

Guns lost 16 (13 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Units retreated 1

[PaxMondo]

Can someone tell me why there are two leader combat modifiers for the defender when there's no HQs within range?

I am not aware that the combat Leader bonus is referencing HQ leaders, I have always known this to be any leader of any unit in the battle. Thus you can have positive and negative bonuses.