Never Thought I'd Start Another One - tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J)

[sfatula]

So, Pax, if you are going to build 300 Georges a month, you are telling me that rather than the research groups being all the optimal 30 size, you are going to addon 270 more factories for one group? Is that correct? That is pretty expensive if so! I was not suggesting that one should change them a lot. I was merely saying if you had a group doing nothing, as Mike has, it can be cheaper to use those for extra production by changing what there were building.

Yes, I realize the example was not reasonable, and I said it was not but was just an example.

[Mike Solli]

[...]

For example, I have 18x 30 George factories. Five are the K1 in production (but turned off because I have plenty right now). Thirteen are in K2 R&D. Soon, the K2 will become operational. At that point, I'll upgrade the 5 operational factories to the K2 and the 13 R&D factories will upgrade to the K5.
[...]

What is the reason to let all 5 of the K1 factories sit idle? I would understand leaving ~2 turned off on the K1 in case you loose more of them than expected to be able to restart some production, but do you need all of the normal production as a reserve? The other turned off factories could help advancing the K2 (and thereby the research start for the K5) at least a little bit and then stay on K2 production, or am I missing something?

That's a good question. In this case, I have 43 N1K1s in the pool. The N1K2 will become operational in 7 days. I could upgrade the 5 idle factories now, but I want them in my pocket until I can upgrade my first unit to the K2. That's 7 days beyond when it becomes operational. So, those 43 planes need to last 14 days. They most likely will, unless Ted decides on an offensive against Rabaul. Then, I'll lose some on the ground and in the air. IF things go badly, I'll need to turn production back on (but that's doubtful). If I upgraded them to the K2 R&D tomorrow, I would get the K2 operationally 1 day earlier. I can live with getting the K2 a day later and upgrade those factories in a week.

I'm not worried about getting enough K2s, when it becomes operational. Let's say my K1 pool runs out around when the K2 becomes operational. I can let all 18 become operational and upgrade one of the 31 plane units in 2 days. The K1s from that unit go to the pool. Problem solved. I lose only 2 days R&D on the K5.

[PaxMondo]

So, Pax, if you are going to build 300 Georges a month, you are telling me that rather than the research groups being all the optimal 30 size, you are going to addon 270 more factories for one group? Is that correct? That is pretty expensive if so! I was not suggesting that one should change them a lot. I was merely saying if you had a group doing nothing, as Mike has, it can be cheaper to use those for extra production by changing what there were building.

Yes, I realize the example was not reasonable, and I said it was not but was just an example.

No, 300 George/month = 10 x size 30 factories for me. Why? requires RnD to obtain. My examples were of production where no RnD was done or required.

[Mike Solli]

22 Feb 43

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Russell Island was the focal point in this AO today, and it wasn't in my favor. I let my fighters get spread out, which is a good way to lose planes and pilots as the Japanese player. The first attack at Russell Island was by 57x 4E bombers and was opposed by 4 Nicks and 3 Georges. All 3 Georges were lost. Ted went after the Japanese paratroopers there in a big way.

The next attack there was 21 more heavy bombers opposed by a single Nick, which was shot down.

That attack was followed by several more heavy bomber raids of 33, 7 and 18 bombers for a total of 136 heavy bombers. Ouch. I think that is his entire heavy bomber force in this AO.

Then, 11 B-25s escorted by 10 Wildcats arrived and were met by 3 Nicks. A Nick and Wildcat were shot down.

An Allied sweep of Lunga by 8 Corsairs met 3 Georges and all 3 Georges went down.

In all, the Nicks lost 1 KIA and 1 MIA. The Georges lost 3 KIA, 1 MIA and 1 WIA. Not a good day at all.

I decided to pull by fighters back to Rabaul to concentrate them, take some replacement aircraft and try to rest them somewhat and fix their sagging morale.

That turned out to be a good decision.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Today's bombing/bombardment destroyed 27 squads.

Raw AV:
Japan: 5966 (+655) - another division arrived making 20 infantry divisions in all.
China: 1713 (-50)
Enemy strength: 272k (no change)
Enemy units: 88 units (no change) - the 10 Construction Regiment arrived yesterday.
Guns: 391 (+24)

Other Stuff

The Ki-84a Frank R&D advanced to 11/43 and will become operational no later than 5/43. There still are 5 of 18 R&D factories fully repaired giving me 10% a day with the engine bonus.

[Mike Solli]

23 Feb 43

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

The Allies demolished the Japanese paratroopers at Russell Island. Other than an Allied sweep or two, no enemy air power flew. That was good. It gave my fighters a chance to rest and repair aircraft.

Tomorrow won't be so quiet...

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Today's bombing and bombardment destroyed 71 squads. It was a pretty good day.

Raw AV:
Japan: 7043 (+77)
China: 1688 (-25)
Enemy strength: 269k (-3k)
Enemy units: 88 units (no change)
Guns: 363 (-28)

Other Stuff

The N1K2-J George R&D advanced to 5/43 and is expected to become operational 3/43.

[Mike Solli]

24 Feb 43

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

The morning started off with a Corsair sweep of Lunga, but no one was home. Just about all my fighters were in search of the enemy over Rabaul. The pilots couldn't understand why they were all recalled to Rabaul. It had been quiet there for weeks. Just the occasional Catalina spying on them.

They heard them before they saw them. There were 68 enemy heavy bombers heading right for Rabaul. And they were escorted by the newest model Lightning, the P-38G. What those Americans didn't know was that almost the entire fighter and fighter bomber power of the 23 Air Flotilla and 5 Air Division were waiting for them. A total of 47 Nicks, 64 Tojos and 67 Georges were in the air.

It wasn't a complete massacre, but it was brutal. The Lightnings tried to hold off the Japanese, but were overwhelmed losing 10 of 15 planes. The fighters then tore into the bombers shooting down 11 while flak got another. What was really odd, was that the bombers targeted the ground troops doing nothing.

The pilots thought that was going to be the end of the battle, but they were mistaken. Another raid of 13 bombers ran into 164 Japanese fighters. This time 7 bombers went down and flak got 2 more. A Tojo and George were lost, but both pilots were recovered wounded. Again, the bombers went after ground troops.

The third raid was 11 Liberators opposed by 134 Japanese fighters. Four were shot down and flak got another. Ground troops again.

The last raid was 6 Liberators opposed by 105 fighters. One was shot down and flak got another.

It was a glorious day for the Japanese fighter corps! In all there were 98 enemy heavy bomber sorties and 28 bombers were lost, all for a cost of 2 fighters shot down and 2 WIA. A handful were written off.

Ted is going to be pissed.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Today's bombing/bombardment destroyed only 18 squads.

Raw AV:
Japan: 6101 (+58)
China: 1672 (-16)
Enemy strength: 270k (+1k)
Enemy units: 88 units (no change)
Guns: 348 (-15)

Sixteen of the 20 infantry divisions are in Chungking and the remaining 4 should arrive tomorrow. The deliberate attack will occur the day after.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement
63 Sentai, 36 fighters, 51 Air Division, this unit will train elite pilots in defense.

[PaxMondo]

24 Feb 43
The morning started off with a Corsair sweep of Lunga, but no one was home. Just about all my fighters were in search of the enemy over Rabaul. The pilots couldn't understand why they were all recalled to Rabaul. It had been quiet there for weeks. Just the occasional Catalina spying on them.

They heard them before they saw them. There were 68 enemy heavy bombers heading right for Rabaul. And they were escorted by the newest model Lightning, the P-38G. What those Americans didn't know was that almost the entire fighter and fighter bomber power of the 23 Air Flotilla and 5 Air Division were waiting for them. A total of 47 Nicks, 64 Tojos and 67 Georges were in the air.

It wasn't a complete massacre, but it was brutal. The Lightnings tried to hold off the Japanese, but were overwhelmed losing 10 of 15 planes. The fighters then tore into the bombers shooting down 11 while flak got another. What was really odd, was that the bombers targeted the ground troops doing nothing.

The pilots thought that was going to be the end of the battle, but they were mistaken. Another raid of 13 bombers ran into 164 Japanese fighters. This time 7 bombers went down and flak got 2 more. A Tojo and George were lost, but both pilots were recovered wounded. Again, the bombers went after ground troops.

The third raid was 11 Liberators opposed by 134 Japanese fighters. Four were shot down and flak got another. Ground troops again.

The last raid was 6 Liberators opposed by 105 fighters. One was shot down and flak got another.

It was a glorious day for the Japanese fighter corps! In all there were 98 enemy heavy bomber sorties and 28 bombers were lost, all for a cost of 2 fighters shot down and 2 WIA. A handful were written off.

Definitive CAP trap; beautifully laid out and executed!


BANZAI!!!!

Ted is going to be pissed.

So mad, or is he going to hit the bottle, or both?

[sfatula]

I change some factories during the game. Actual examples are the starting Val factory once I don't need Vals anymore. Same for Kates and the Glen group I run out of engines for. While I make Sallies for a while, I don't make them the entire game. I do make Lilys for a short while.

[Mike Solli]

I change some factories during the game. Actual examples are the starting Val factory once I don't need Vals anymore. Same for Kates and the Glen group I run out of engines for. While I make Sallies for a while, I don't make them the entire game. I do make Lilys for a short while.

I (and probably most people) do similar things. I just finished building out the Glens with a size 9 factory. I converted it to the D4Y1 and increased it to 30. I'll upgrade it to the D4Y2 R&D when it finishes repairing. I built Vals for a time but it's shut off now and I have 96 in the pool but I won't change it if I need more. I won't have a replacement until I get the D4Y3. I built out the B5N1 Kate using some more engines we start with. That factory and the Kate factory have been changed. I believe both were at 15. I'm still building Sallies but plan on shutting that down for good by the end of February 43. I built them a lot longer than I had anticipated. The Helen IIa is chugging along nicely to cover losses and conversions. I never built the Lily because 100 kg bombs just don't do it for me. They are all trainers now.

For the Kates, I have 150 N1 and 133 N2 in the pool. I've got 3x30 B6N2 building now. They'll replace the Kates in KB and MKB. The Kate's ultimate fate will be as Kamikazes.

Speaking of Kamikazes, I'll use just about everything that carries a bomb as Kamikazes. Even the 50 Mavis I have in the pool will serve that purpose admirably.

[Mike Solli]

25 Feb 43

Sub War

The I-157, patrolling west of Perth, caught and put a torpedo into an xAK. Later in the day, she caught up with her and put 2 more torpedoes into her sinking her.

5 Fleet

Just rearranging deck chairs. I'm moving troops around and pulling some out to rebuild at Yokohama prior to their next assignment. It's 16 Army. I need to decide where they should go to defend. I'm thinking back to Java because there's basically no defense there. We'll see...

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

Thirty-five heavy bombers hit Lunga's troops today. They all came from the south (Luganville?). They were not the same bombers that got trashed yesterday, which all came from Australia, Pt. Moresby and that area.

So, there were 98 (now <70) from the west and another 35 from the south making 133 bombers. Now there around 100 bombers. He lost about a month's heavy bomber production. The new B-24D1 gets ~33 a month.

Ted told me that they were set to hit my (former) troops at Rennell Island. They were destroyed a couple days ago and he forgot to rest them or change their mission. So, they went looking for some troops to attack and went for Rabaul. His mistake this time. Will the next mistake be mine again? Only time will tell.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

I had a bombardment TF composed of 6 CA and 5 CL escorted by 4 DD hit Chittagong today. Ted keeps a lot of fighters there (70+ this time) so I like to mess things up when I can. The bombardment had another benefit too. He's been building up his tiny ships there to harass me at Cox's Bazaar. The TF found a 12 ship TF of little boats. When I saw it, I thought they were MTBs and it scared me. Soon I realized they were MGBs and I had little to worry about. The only down side was use of 8" shells to obliterate them, which meant a less effective bombardment. Anyway, the TF took out 6 before breaking off.

Then, they ran into a lone MGB and sank her.

Finally, they caught up with the 6 survivors and dispatched them.

When it was done, they bombarded destroying 1 Hurricane and damaging 27 more. Little damage was done to the airfield.

It was ok, but I have to look on the bright side. Those little MGBs that were driving off my cargo ships headed to Cox's Bazaar are gone.

In the afternoon, 6 Catalinas tried to bomb the TF, but missed and had a couple planes damaged by flak.

China

The bombers didn't fly today and the artillery was lackluster at best. They destroyed a paltry 9 squads. It appears that the bombers destroy few squads but disable a LOT of them. Then the artillery gets a lot of kills. Things definitely are better when both are active.

Raw AV:
Japan: 6156 (+65)
China: 1680 (+8)
Enemy strength: 269k (-1k)
Enemy units: 88 units (no change)
Guns: 369 (+21)

Tomorrow, another deliberate assault goes in. In the last attack, my raw AV was 4514 and the Chinese was 1834, so my raw AV has increased about a third by 1742 and the Chinese has decreased a little by 154. The reason for a smaller than normal decrease (I believe) was when the artillery moved out of Chungking. There were a few days of no barrages. Anyway, I have high hopes for this assault.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement
SC CHa-5, ASW in shallow hexes. This is only the second of this class. The other is guarding Shanghai, but there hasn't been any enemy sub activity there. She will team up with her sister ship and wait for 1 more reinforcement (in 10 days) and then move to Palembang to free up 3 Ch-13 class (with the Mod 2 DC racks) for deep water ASW duties.

[PaxMondo]

25 Feb 43
Tomorrow, another deliberate assault goes in. In the last attack, my raw AV was 4514 and the Chinese was 1834, so my raw AV has increased about a third by 1742 and the Chinese has decreased a little by 154. The reason for a smaller than normal decrease (I believe) was when the artillery moved out of Chungking. There were a few days of no barrages. Anyway, I have high hopes for this assault.

Yeah, you need to drop forts this time ...

[sfatula]

I (and probably most people) do similar things. I just finished building out the Glens with a size 9 factory. I converted it to the D4Y1 and increased it to 30. I'll upgrade it to the D4Y2 R&D when it finishes repairing. I built Vals for a time but it's shut off now and I have 96 in the pool but I won't change it if I need more. I won't have a replacement until I get the D4Y3. I built out the B5N1 Kate using some more engines we start with. That factory and the Kate factory have been changed. I believe both were at 15. I'm still building Sallies but plan on shutting that down for good by the end of February 43. I built them a lot longer than I had anticipated. The Helen IIa is chugging along nicely to cover losses and conversions. I never built the Lily because 100 kg bombs just don't do it for me. They are all trainers now.

Yeah, but it's 4 100KG Bombs (Lily). I only make as needed for a few months since I start with a group already making those until the Helen comes out (which I change them to Helens as I want the Ia version for future radar and it can continue on as Helens advance). I mostly use the Lilies as longer range ASW for a while, don't need many more and don't lose too many. I make Helens mostly the entire game. I use the other bombers as trainers (other than Sally of course). Ann, Mary, and esp Ida, Sonia not good for much else. Ann/Mary can be used in choke points as ASW though.

I guess I am triggered when people say it's expensive to change factory groups. They really mean something else, but....

Excited to hear about (upcoming) Chungking!

[Mike Solli]

I (and probably most people) do similar things. I just finished building out the Glens with a size 9 factory. I converted it to the D4Y1 and increased it to 30. I'll upgrade it to the D4Y2 R&D when it finishes repairing. I built Vals for a time but it's shut off now and I have 96 in the pool but I won't change it if I need more. I won't have a replacement until I get the D4Y3. I built out the B5N1 Kate using some more engines we start with. That factory and the Kate factory have been changed. I believe both were at 15. I'm still building Sallies but plan on shutting that down for good by the end of February 43. I built them a lot longer than I had anticipated. The Helen IIa is chugging along nicely to cover losses and conversions. I never built the Lily because 100 kg bombs just don't do it for me. They are all trainers now.

Yeah, but it's 4 100KG Bombs (Lily). I only make as needed for a few months since I start with a group already making those until the Helen comes out (which I change them to Helens as I want the Ia version for future radar and it can continue on as Helens advance). I mostly use the Lilies as longer range ASW for a while, don't need many more and don't lose too many. I make Helens mostly the entire game. I use the other bombers as trainers (other than Sally of course). Ann, Mary, and esp Ida, Sonia not good for much else. Ann/Mary can be used in choke points as ASW though.

I guess I am triggered when people say it's expensive to change factory groups. They really mean something else, but....

Excited to hear about (upcoming) Chungking!

The Lily is one of those love/hate things. You either love them or hate them. I'm in the latter group.

[PaxMondo]

The Lily is one of those love/hate things. You either love them or hate them. I'm in the latter group.

Me too.*


* Proud card-carrying member of the Lilly-haters group.

[Mike Solli]

26 Feb 43

Sub War

South of Noumea, I-23 put a torpedo into an xAK. She didn't sink. I'm moving I-23 because her mission is to snoop Noumea, not engage targets.

South of Pago Pago, the I-162 found an interesting TF and engaged and sank an AGP. In the TF were a CL, LST and LCI. Troops? At any rate, an escorting DD hit her twice forcing her to the surface and sank her. She shot repeatedly at the CL but unfortunately missed.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Nothing to report.

SE Fleet

KB 2 is hanging out a couple hexes west of Ellice Islands. She isn't spotted. I don't see any worthwhile targets yet. I see 2-3 CVEs at Rennell Island, but there are too many fighters stationed there to make it worthwhile. I'm going to see if they head south. Then, I'll pounce on them.

The 4 Aobas with 4 Fubukis are 7 hexes NE of Tulagi. I see a TF of 6 ships in Tulagi. The Aobas are making a speed run into Tulagi to try and catch them. They are spotted, so the Allies may flee. Just trying to pick at the Allies and keep them off balance.

Thirty-two heavies and 15 Mitchells hit Lunga's troops, for little effect. I'm confident Lunga is the next target. They have level 3 forts and I have 2 minelaying subs ready to drop off 80 mines when the area is a little more clear of enemy ships. In addition to the TF in Tulagi, there is one in Russell Island and one east and west of Lunga. I believe they are all ASW TFs.

At Rennell Island, in addition to the CVE TF, I see another large TF that may be an invasion TF.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Today's bombing destroyed 9 squads and disrupted another 88 in preparation for the deliberate assault.

Raw AV:
Japan: 6247 (+91) - prior to the attack
China: 1690 (+10) - prior to the attack
Enemy strength: 265k (-4k)
Enemy units: 71 units (-17)
Guns: 372 (+3)

I consider the attack successful. The odds were 1.57:1 and the forts were reduced from 5 to 4. That's a step in the right direction. I am now going to attack every 7 days.

Yes, 17 units were destroyed. I saw one Chinese Corps disappear during the attack but won't see the rest until the next turn. I hope most of the units were support units and not the combat units.

I lost a total of 353 squads destroyed, about a division equivalent. I have an elite, 81 experience division heading toward Chungking, but it is about 9-10 days out. Another is a few days behind. That's about it until I can free more up, which is doubtful for a while.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement
DD Suzunami, Yugumo class, KB escort

The N1K2-J George advanced to 4/43 and is expected to become operational 3/2/43. Yay!

[Mike Solli]

Unless Ted gets some Chinese Corps, I think Chungking's days are numbered. Each attack decreases the Chinese raw AV by ~300. So, tomorrow we should see the raw AV down to about 1400 and it drops 30-50 a day when bombers and artillery both attack.

My current AV (after the attack) is 4557. The things that I want to see lowered are the fatigue (70 average) and disruption (78 average). The disruption drops pretty quickly, but the fatigue is the killer. Based on the past, after a week it should be down to around 30. That'll hurt, but I want him to run out of AV before he starts getting big, replacement Corps. I'll take the losses. I can afford it more than he can.

[sfatula]

The Lily is one of those love/hate things. You either love them or hate them. I'm in the latter group.

Curious what you use for land based aircraft for ASW then (early on)? Surely not those other useless bombers as the range is so small?

I don't know that anyone loves Japanese bombers, esp. the starting ones. Excluding naval attacks with torpedoes, we all like that.

[Mike Solli]

The Lily is one of those love/hate things. You either love them or hate them. I'm in the latter group.

Curious what you use for land based aircraft for ASW then (early on)? Surely not those other useless bombers as the range is so small?

I don't know that anyone loves Japanese bombers, esp. the starting ones. Excluding naval attacks with torpedoes, we all like that.

I use the Mary and Ann for 1E ASW and naval search. They carry a 250 kg bomb. When I start to get my 2E bomber numbers increasing, I use the Sally (both models) and the Helen. Eventually, when I abdicate the air to the Allies, the IJA bomber force becomes primarily an ASW/naval search force. Losses are low and they become great Kamikazes later.

[Mike Solli]

27 Feb 43

Sub War

Nothing to report.

5 Fleet

Nothing to report.

4 Fleet

Six PB4Y-1 Liberators visited Johnston Island. Not sure what they were targeting, but they missed. It was probably extended range because they were carrying only 5x 500 lb bombs.

SE Fleet

So, the 4 Aobas and 4 Fubukis entered Tulagi harbor and ran into CA Louisville, CLs Leander and Trenton, 4 DDs and a DMS. I figured I had weight of gun on my side, along with long lances. All four of my CAs took a couple each of non-penetrating hits and 3 of the 4 DDs took a shell hit. Nothing major. On the Allied side, Louisville Leander, a DD and the DMS all took penetrating shell hits. Again, nothing that will cause anything to sink.

Oh yeah, 96 long lances were launched and hit nothing.

What bothered me was the my TF remained in Tulagi's hex, in range of enemy LBA at Russell Island. And they came...

First was a dozen torpedo laden Avengers. Fortunately, they missed. Then 5 bomb carrying Catalinas from somewhere down south (Luganville?) which also missed. Then a dozen bomb carrying Avengers from Russell Island hit Kako twice and Furutaka once. The damage wasn't too bad. Finally, 3 more Catalinas missed with bombs. Tomorrow, my ships will hit the road and head back to Truk.

Twenty-nine 4Es hit went after Tulagi's troops. No appreciable damage. After that, 15 B-25D1s went after Tulagi's port.

SRA

Nothing to report.

Burma

Nothing to report.

China

Today's bombing and bombardment destroyed a paltry 5 squads. There was a shortage of supply in Chungking and the bombers just plain missed. Supply has been replenished.

Raw AV:
Japan: 4612 (-1635)
China: 1287 (-403) - nice result. I hope their AV is down to around 1000 by the next attack.
Enemy strength: 258k (-7k)
Enemy units: 70 units (-1)
Guns: 299 (-78)

I track the AV, fatigue and disruption of each of my divisions. That's the major attack power. Anyway, their AV increased by 129 today (4002 to 4131). They didn't replace any destroyed squads but 163 disrupted infantry squads were repaired.

So, 17 enemy units were destroyed in the attack. Here they are:

Construction Regiments: 1, 3, 10, 11, 14 - Nice! They have 0 AV.
Group Armies: 2, 4, 7, 10, 21, 23, 26, 35 - Also nice. They have 0 AV as well.
7 Chinese Base Force - At full strength, they have 40 infantry. So, they'll come back with ~13.
15 Chinese Corps - Small corps that will come back with ~50 infantry.
7 New Chinese Corps - Same size as the 15th.
9 Separate Brigade - Will come back with ~27 infantry.

I'm really happy with the result. I don't want the really big corps to die until the end. They'll come back in about a month, which is why I'm now going to attack every 7 days. That will give me 4 attacks until these units return and the other units that die in those 4 attacks will not return.

Other Stuff

Reinforcement
CL Oyodo, KB escort, it's big but the main armament sucks.

[sfatula]

Wow, 96 and they all missed!? I'd have expected a few sunk allied ships, terrible luck there.

Actually, the best early ASW is Allied torpedoes.