Is the past a lesson for the future?

[Raverdave]

I invoke the "no politics" rule on this thread !

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

Okay, do we use history to help solve the problems of the future/present? As I remember reading about the fall of Berlin in WW2, it took a quarter of million Russian casualties to root out the diehard Nazi vermin. Well.....what if we cordon off Fallujah, give the good folks 72 hours to vacate the premises, checking them all as they come out. Then........what? House to house, or just raze the place of living organisms with MOABs? Are we too civil? Is this a war or not? How long are we going to pussy-foot around these animals?

What is war to you, ever been shot at then go to return fire just to see some family trying to run for cover under a hail of fire. Just wast them to is that what you are saying. Don't you think at that point you just lossed everything our Soldiers in this Country has ever Died for. And would we be just as bad as what we are fighting. I think so

[SeaMonkey]

Don't put words in my mouth Sarge, I have enough to spell out my opinion. Can't say I've ever walked in those shoes(war), this lifetime. My definition is formed by the past, present and future declarations of others. One thing seems clear, war is messy, mistakes happen, whether intended or not. I'm not judge or jury, just an observer, hopefully stimulating some different perspectives to guide mine. I would like to see war stay very messy, else it increases its viability, let's keep it last resort. Another very apparent thing is for there to be peace there must be a clear victor or the conflict continues. It seems the victor has to behave in a merciless manner at times to force the surrender, doesn't make it right or justifiable, just the facts. Sure there are always alternatives, but at what cost? What are you willing to bare as you search for the answer? Sometimes the question of your resolve will lead to a more humane conclusion, but you must establish what that resolve can be. Words sometimes don't convey that message, you can't go through life emitting lip service, there is a time to act and if it is appropriate with overwelming decisiveness. Life is not a rose garden, even if it was there are still thorns. It is a test, and this is a test of the emergency broadcast system, remember it is only a test.

[Sarge]

Well SeaMonkey I do see your point. But remember if America acts swiftly we are judged by most of the world as jumping the gun- over reacting-looking for a fight -bla bla bla.But if we sit back and wait it out and not jump right in the middle of the issue(what ever it might be) we are accused of caring about nothing but are own interests. Just read some of the posts on this forum alone. America is the worlds cop like it or not that is the way it is and will be for a long time.America Help me, Help me,Help me[&o].............did you really need to use that much force [:(], we will take it from here and tell the world how you went about the whole issue the wrong way. How many American boys have given the lifes for someone esle's mess and got the finger when it was all over. Look at France just for starters.

[hero_33]

Hey Les,

Just wanted to say that i'm sorry for my previously somewhat venemouse statements to your post on this thread. We are all entitled to our oppinions and I have mine. I strongly support the president and the actions in Iraq and I know you don't. That's fine and it's what makes the world go round. You contribute more to the war gaming community than I ever could and it is appreciated. Keep it up and viva la difference!

There, I feel better now [;)]

Steve.

[SeaMonkey]

We're in agreement Sarge, kind of hate to use an old cliche', but its appropriate, "Damned if you do! Damned if you don't!"

So I'm for being pro-active. History has taught us that inaction begets disaster and we have a most recent example ie. 911. So we must be aggressive, militarily as well as diplomatically, not to mention clandestinely, albeit tempered with compassion. It will be difficult and we will ruffle feathers, so what's the alternative.......simple.. there is none. And besides that we're the biggest kid on the block, with the biggest stick, so I say to the world "you don't like it....tough, what are you going to do about it?" Oh yeah will get some lip service and a some will help us ....the rest..... will stick there heads back in the sand and in the end we'll save their ass too, cause that's what Americans do.

[Marines]

Like I said I was there and you have no idea what your talking about unless you have been there. But I agree...I went to disarm a dictator who possessed and used chemical weapons against his own people and Iran that alone should give you an idea of what he thinks it takes to win..."Anything and everything." But I guess it turns out that Iraq dosen't have any WMD's be they nuclear, biological or chemical even independent investigators contracted by the CIA, US, UK and others found no evidence of any WMD program, thier industrial complex that was needed to produce such weapons simply did not exist..but of course they had ample time to hide and bury them or send the to neighboring countries be they friendly or even mortal enemies.

It really dosen't matter now..our job is to faciliate a secure enviroment and to provide for a form of government which is democracy that hasn't been seen in the middle east ever unless you count colonial rule by the British. One thing is certain if we pull out now or in the near future by means of force or corrosion the rest of the Arab world will view us and our allies as weaklings.

Semper Fi

Say a prayer for my brothers in arms fighting in Iraq

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Marines

One thing is certain if we pull out now or in the near future by means of force or corrosion the rest of the Arab world will view us and our allies as weaklings.

That's affirmative. But we also have to keep in mind, even though we were attacked on 9/11, it was not the people of Iraq who attacked us. Even though there are plenty of bloodthirsty bastards in Iraq fighting us, by no means is everyone there a bloodthirsty bastard. A vast majority of the people who live in, say, Fallujah are not much different from you and me; they live in a dwelling with their families, do what they have to do to eat, and complain about discomfort. When you say, lets "just raze the place of living organisms with MOABs," most of the organisms you propose to erase are not the ones who are our enemies. But of the ones of those who live on after such an operation, how many of them do you think will remain on the sidelines? Would we not simply be magnifying our dilemma rather than solving it? Hey, I'm not sure what we should be doing, but making new enemies faster than we are killing the old ones won't help any more than us being perceived as weaklings would. Let's don't forget, when we invaded Iraq, defeated and disbanded its military, we thereby took on ourselves the responsibility for restoring peace and order to the place. Just because some bad guys are making that job more complicated than we wanted it to be does not give us the right to say "screw this sh1t" and lash out in anger and frustration. We need a strategy to reduce the opposition to our occupation that does not actually work to increase it....

I know this will not be a popular view here, but if we will take it on ourselves to remake the world as we want it to be, we also have to give the world a reason to cooperate with us if we don't want to have to fight every step of the way. I don't think that's how we really want it to be.

[SeaMonkey]

The MOAB referral was a questionable response, it was an incidental solicitation of ideas, remember I included the statement of letting the good people vacate the premises. Which I must say we seem to be getting. I'm not so sure that we need to concentrate on the institution of democracy presently, but maybe just provide a secure environment and let the democracy or form there of take its course. Anytime a new governing philosophy is introduced to an area completely devoid of its concept there is going to be some "growing pains". Rival parties will always embrace violence when there is a struggle for power, look at our own past. If you listen to the rhetoric of our present political climate it seems it is even not far off. Now take that mentality back to a medieval perspective which seems to simulate the mentality of Mid-Eastern culture and you get what we've got. Americans as well as the rest of the civilized world need to remember this is no quick fix, we are in for the long haul, instant gratification is not relevant. With the benevolent rise of MWDs proliferation, if we don't suppress the violent hatred of this region, we all know what the result is going to be. Let us not have to rededicate ourselves to this task as we did after 911, with a similar occurrence. We can debate the methods, but for the conclusion, we all agree upon. History has taught us the lesson, let us not forget.

[Marines]

For one thing dip s**t I never said anything about any type of total destruction of a city, town or village using MOABs or Daisy Cutters "fuel air bombs" or any type of such weapon that was Seamonkey. Make sure you are quoting the right person next time.

Semper Fi

[VicKevlar]

ORIGINAL: Marines

For one thing dip s**t I never said anything about any type of total destruction of a city, town or village using MOABs or Daisy Cutters "fuel air bombs" or any type of such weapon that was Seamonkey. Make sure you are quoting the right person next time.

Semper Fi

This is now the second and LAST warning with you about the personal insults. If it occurs again....you will be on vacation from Matrix. Got it?