Camp's
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Camp's
It seems to me that these Campaigns are abit silly WB??? Your setups seem to indicate that the Players team has NO intel??? I mean getting a DELAY order and then having to attack seems like G2 needs to be lined up against the wall and shot and hordes of tanks appearing in the REAR of the formations is just plain out of the question for any reasonable commander would have SOME intel
BigJim,
You should identify which campaign you're refering to. As far as whether a battle is delay, advance etc., I'm finding in designing battles that these are better used as design tools, as the AI acts differently in a defense scenario vs. a assault scenrio. So WB may have called it a delay in order to get the AI to be aggressive, but in reality you are advancing. Make sense?
As far as enemy coming from unexpected areas, you are correct. These may be areas where they shouldn't be coming from, but if you just think of them as units that broke through the unit on your flank, and they never radioed you the information. Sometimes, if you use a very unusual tactic - such as a very wide flanking manuever - you'll not be interacting as the scenario designer intended.
Finally, IMHO, WB's campaigns have improved a lot since the first ones, as his experience has increased, and he's invented new tricks to make the AI a better opponent. He also makes his campaigns 'average' in diffuculty (hurtgen excepted), so the bulk of players can play it. If you are new to SPWAW, don't expect it to be too easy. Conversly, don't expect it to be very challenging if your an SP expert.
You should identify which campaign you're refering to. As far as whether a battle is delay, advance etc., I'm finding in designing battles that these are better used as design tools, as the AI acts differently in a defense scenario vs. a assault scenrio. So WB may have called it a delay in order to get the AI to be aggressive, but in reality you are advancing. Make sense?
As far as enemy coming from unexpected areas, you are correct. These may be areas where they shouldn't be coming from, but if you just think of them as units that broke through the unit on your flank, and they never radioed you the information. Sometimes, if you use a very unusual tactic - such as a very wide flanking manuever - you'll not be interacting as the scenario designer intended.
Finally, IMHO, WB's campaigns have improved a lot since the first ones, as his experience has increased, and he's invented new tricks to make the AI a better opponent. He also makes his campaigns 'average' in diffuculty (hurtgen excepted), so the bulk of players can play it. If you are new to SPWAW, don't expect it to be too easy. Conversly, don't expect it to be very challenging if your an SP expert.
Unconventional war requires unconventional thought
Without spending a lot of time trying to defend my thoughts, Big Jim, I would ask first of all, which campaigns are you referring to? There are a number of them and I might be better able to answer you if I knew which ones.
I would not want to think of them as "silly." THat of course, is a matter of opinion. Whichever ones they were, there was a purpose in my mind and a reason for what I did.
As for military intel in WW2, or any war for that matter, I get a sense from reading and talking with vets that military intelligence in the minds of some is a contradiction in terms.
I could think of a few, such as Singapore, Midway, Battle of the Bulge, Normandy and Stalingrad from the German side, and perhaps others.
Maybe my intelligence is something on that level.
I'm sorry my work seems "ludicrous" to you. Not much I can do about that except try to do it better...and I will.
But its an open field out there and there is plenty of room for a lot of campaigns, 999 of them in fact, in SPWAW.
So maybe there will be some more by other designers that will be to your liking along the way. I hope so.
Wild Bill
I would not want to think of them as "silly." THat of course, is a matter of opinion. Whichever ones they were, there was a purpose in my mind and a reason for what I did.
As for military intel in WW2, or any war for that matter, I get a sense from reading and talking with vets that military intelligence in the minds of some is a contradiction in terms.
I could think of a few, such as Singapore, Midway, Battle of the Bulge, Normandy and Stalingrad from the German side, and perhaps others.
Maybe my intelligence is something on that level.
I'm sorry my work seems "ludicrous" to you. Not much I can do about that except try to do it better...and I will.
But its an open field out there and there is plenty of room for a lot of campaigns, 999 of them in fact, in SPWAW.
So maybe there will be some more by other designers that will be to your liking along the way. I hope so.
Wild Bill
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
Bigjim,
I've been surprised and puzzled,too, playing my firsts campaigns (by WB, but NOT only by him) to find out that my troops were attacked by flanks/rear and sometimes encircled by unexpected AI forces which by miracle appeared where..they shouldnt appear.
Then, i thought a bit more abt that and drawn to the conclusion that it is a way for designers to make playing against AI more interesting and challenging.
If you let the AI play its way without adding some little..tricks(altough sometimes looking unhistorical and/or unrealistic), well,soon it would become a simple and boring shoot-the-bear action:the AI is simply too SILLY for any mean brained human being!
I've been surprised and puzzled,too, playing my firsts campaigns (by WB, but NOT only by him) to find out that my troops were attacked by flanks/rear and sometimes encircled by unexpected AI forces which by miracle appeared where..they shouldnt appear.
Then, i thought a bit more abt that and drawn to the conclusion that it is a way for designers to make playing against AI more interesting and challenging.
If you let the AI play its way without adding some little..tricks(altough sometimes looking unhistorical and/or unrealistic), well,soon it would become a simple and boring shoot-the-bear action:the AI is simply too SILLY for any mean brained human being!
Federico "Resisti" Doveri
Ok first off WB I didn't want to really step hard on your toes I know you have done alot of work trying to make these up. The one I am playing is the "long road" and I use combined infantry and armour when moving up, I have had armour "appear" in hexes I passed thru with my infantry who did not "spot" them (because by game design I think they had not been "placed" yet). When playing these "camps" one makes some assumtions (like you are the advance point and the rest of the army is BEHIND you). I guess it is a matter of "game play" if so fine, but I do find from a realistic point of view some of the things are "silly" and since MY father was a WWII vet I too have some first hand knowledge. Although I must admit being at Iwo Jima and being in bocage country is somewhat different and your reference to "midway" as poor military intel is a good one since the IJN did lack the "eyes" it sorely needed (our breaking of the "purple code" didn't hurt either). I think that you do alot of work for the guys Bill and I just felt that perhaps some slight tweaking might make the game as playable without as much "spoiler" activity needed, sorry if it bent you up some. BTW is it your information that Bazooka's, Panzershrike's, etc are accurate out to 250 yards????
[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
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BryanMelvin
- Posts: 1048
- Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Colorado, USA
Big Jim - try the Stalingrad Camapign and see the tricks of design trade.
The AI does not play as a human does but one can program it to do certain things well enough to give one a run for their money.
In the Stalingrad Campaign - I made it stick to an historical story line as much as possible. I am working on an add on update to add a Break out of the pocket and a break in to the pocket depending on the branch one finds themselves in (either in Stalingrad or outside Stalingrad - Winter time)
Currently - if you find yourself trapped in Stalingrad - game will end - historically for the player. You'll see your forces depleted. If you were able to win some key battles during the Rumainian Retreat, you will be left outside of the Pocket and take part in winter storm.
I hope to have variations of these in an upcoming patch.
Thoughout this campaign - I used sources that help to set up the AI defences as the USSR did in many of the scenarios. I had to modify the amount of mines, wire, and road blocks for playbalance sake so that a player could win
This Campaign is not easy and AI will give you many surprises.
The AI does not play as a human does but one can program it to do certain things well enough to give one a run for their money.
In the Stalingrad Campaign - I made it stick to an historical story line as much as possible. I am working on an add on update to add a Break out of the pocket and a break in to the pocket depending on the branch one finds themselves in (either in Stalingrad or outside Stalingrad - Winter time)
Currently - if you find yourself trapped in Stalingrad - game will end - historically for the player. You'll see your forces depleted. If you were able to win some key battles during the Rumainian Retreat, you will be left outside of the Pocket and take part in winter storm.
I hope to have variations of these in an upcoming patch.
Thoughout this campaign - I used sources that help to set up the AI defences as the USSR did in many of the scenarios. I had to modify the amount of mines, wire, and road blocks for playbalance sake so that a player could win
This Campaign is not easy and AI will give you many surprises.
On a side note, enemy forces that appear in hexes/areas you think are clear can also be there to simulate two things:
a. Infantry that 'went to ground' or was trained to let you bypass, then pop up and attack from the rear - the Soviets' did that latter one a lot in city fighting.
b. Mobile reaction forces - which were a key to how the Germans, especially, defended.
Alex
a. Infantry that 'went to ground' or was trained to let you bypass, then pop up and attack from the rear - the Soviets' did that latter one a lot in city fighting.
b. Mobile reaction forces - which were a key to how the Germans, especially, defended.
Alex
"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.
Originally posted by bigjim:
thanks for the insight AB that helps clear up some of it.
Bing what part of REAR didn't you understand???
The rear of a formation is as much a flank as right or left. I learned the hard way in SPW@W never to take a single tree or building for granted. I almost always leave squads behind to guard the perimeter. Don't get surprised the way I used to, not as frequently anyway.
Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
I understand and I thank you for the second letter...and the first one.
Nothng wrong with keeping folks on their toes.
Now another you would like is the Hurtgen campaign ... and they really got cut off, but that is not a real issue in the battle.
or campaign. The issue is taking and holding at least Kommerscheidt but even so, General Cota will finally order an evacuation.
This one is probably more to your liking. Good replies from all of you, A-B, Resisti, Don, and Bing. Alexandra brings up two good points.
Flankers undetected can get in your rear, and that is the case sometimes in a few of these battles. They can sweep past your rapid advance and end up behind you.
But your point is taken and appreciated, Jim. I'll keep it in mind.
Oh, Stalingrad is an excellent campaign!
Marauder did well.
[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]
Nothng wrong with keeping folks on their toes.
Now another you would like is the Hurtgen campaign ... and they really got cut off, but that is not a real issue in the battle.
or campaign. The issue is taking and holding at least Kommerscheidt but even so, General Cota will finally order an evacuation.
This one is probably more to your liking. Good replies from all of you, A-B, Resisti, Don, and Bing. Alexandra brings up two good points.
Flankers undetected can get in your rear, and that is the case sometimes in a few of these battles. They can sweep past your rapid advance and end up behind you.
But your point is taken and appreciated, Jim. I'll keep it in mind.
Oh, Stalingrad is an excellent campaign!
Marauder did well.
[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
Addendum to Alexandras good summary of enemy units suddenly appearing:
As von Mellethin (sp?) points out in his book, the Germans consistently surprised Soviet units by appearing in their rear. So much so it became an operational item for the Germans, a tactic they could depend upon.
How were they able to achieve such results? The Soviets let them get away with it - careless leadership, for lack of a better phrase.
Bing
As von Mellethin (sp?) points out in his book, the Germans consistently surprised Soviet units by appearing in their rear. So much so it became an operational item for the Germans, a tactic they could depend upon.
How were they able to achieve such results? The Soviets let them get away with it - careless leadership, for lack of a better phrase.
Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
Thanks all for the great input 
Bing in my military training there are four points Rear, right and left flank, and point.
Normally a "rear guard" is posted when making a retrograde movement (marines don't retreat, they just attack in the opposite direction).
As for troops going to "ground" no problems there either, but TANKS going to ground is somewhat a different proposition, they would have had to approach from farther away which would mean the commander had no intel about what was behind and on his flanks (possible but not likely). Of course battle is "fluid" and his intel could have broken down (actually no problem with this either) but have his intel break down EVERY senario is abit much (which was my original point).
I just put it out badly which is my fault, thanks again for the posts.
Bing in my military training there are four points Rear, right and left flank, and point.
Normally a "rear guard" is posted when making a retrograde movement (marines don't retreat, they just attack in the opposite direction).
As for troops going to "ground" no problems there either, but TANKS going to ground is somewhat a different proposition, they would have had to approach from farther away which would mean the commander had no intel about what was behind and on his flanks (possible but not likely). Of course battle is "fluid" and his intel could have broken down (actually no problem with this either) but have his intel break down EVERY senario is abit much (which was my original point).
I just put it out badly which is my fault, thanks again for the posts.
BigJim - I'm sure you're absooutely correct on the four points. What I meant and didn't express particularly well is the rear of a formation can be as potentialliy lethal as the front or either flank.
I agree the game pulls some "funnies" now and then, but after all it IS a game and somtimes we expect too much from an already overburdened AI. I decided to just accept these kinds of things happen, in game that otherwise is the best ground tactical game I have played.
If my attempt at humor was inappropriate, consider it withdrawn and an apology is offered.
Bing
I agree the game pulls some "funnies" now and then, but after all it IS a game and somtimes we expect too much from an already overburdened AI. I decided to just accept these kinds of things happen, in game that otherwise is the best ground tactical game I have played.
If my attempt at humor was inappropriate, consider it withdrawn and an apology is offered.
Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
OK tried Stalingrad, here the problem with this one. ALL the Russian troops are set to ELITE (sorry not historical). Numbers are fine but unroutable troops is not correct, the Russian troops in many cases were ordered into battle at gun point (hardly elite troopers).
Now with that aside it seems to be a good set up except when I tried to save the game and come back later for next battle it returned to me to the first battle all over again????? (I had played the first turn of the second battle but didnot save it)
Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT
[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
Now with that aside it seems to be a good set up except when I tried to save the game and come back later for next battle it returned to me to the first battle all over again????? (I had played the first turn of the second battle but didnot save it)
Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT
[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: bigjim ]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigjim:
[Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT
Jim - I've felt that way too - and been VERY frustrated when a seemingly impossible situation develops. My current pet peeve is designers who disguise stone buildings and stone walls as ordinary streets - so your vehicles smash into them and are immobilized IF you do not check every hex they will traverse in advance.
Some may enjoy this sort of thing, to me it is like hemorhoids: Irritating as all get out but not fatal.
I guess I've said enough. I was going to talk about the dumbest drivers in the entire world being the ones on my side, but I should lay it down now.
Bing
[Bing no offense taken and thanks for the clarification, I do realize it is a game and it is SO good that I just can't resist trying to see it become PERFECT
Jim - I've felt that way too - and been VERY frustrated when a seemingly impossible situation develops. My current pet peeve is designers who disguise stone buildings and stone walls as ordinary streets - so your vehicles smash into them and are immobilized IF you do not check every hex they will traverse in advance.
Some may enjoy this sort of thing, to me it is like hemorhoids: Irritating as all get out but not fatal.
I guess I've said enough. I was going to talk about the dumbest drivers in the entire world being the ones on my side, but I should lay it down now.
Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
LOL Bing I know what you mean I have had that happen in several camps, not sure if it is intentional or just a bug with map making (seems like I remember some bug regarding that). MY pet peeve is getting a draw when you have taken all the V hexs and hold them in strength and the computer issues a draw, IMHO if you accomplish your objective in strength then the MINIMUM result should be marginal victory. If the out come is preordained why play the camp??????
Well, I think some designers do the stone-wall-disguised-as-ordinary-pavement to keep us on our toes, in fact I am pretty much convinced this does happen.
The only sure way I know to get a decisive in campaigns is to get all the victory hexes on or before the halfway point in the game. I just got a decisive at the start of the 17th turn of a 20 turn battle. Second battle of five in the campaign - now perhaps a decisive in the first battle ad something to do with this, I don't know. Also, it is not a generated campaign it is designed.
Bing
The only sure way I know to get a decisive in campaigns is to get all the victory hexes on or before the halfway point in the game. I just got a decisive at the start of the 17th turn of a 20 turn battle. Second battle of five in the campaign - now perhaps a decisive in the first battle ad something to do with this, I don't know. Also, it is not a generated campaign it is designed.
Bing
"For Those That Fought For It, Freedom Has a Taste And A Meaning The Protected Will Never Know. " -
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website
From the 101st Airborne Division Association Website