Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
Moderator: Arjuna
Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
After like 20 hours, I just couldn't get into Korsun Pocket. The learning curve was too steep, and I didn't have the time opr motivation to continue with it as I found it frustrating (and I really hated the graphics - I know that's shallow). However, I'm wondering if this game is easier to get into, learn, manage, (and it looks like it has nice graphics?)?
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
It is continous time like skiing down hill. Unlike Steel Panthers which is turn based.
But HTTR has a pause function to make it easier.
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But HTTR has a pause function to make it easier.
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RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
But that doesn't answer my question, on if it's easier to leanr and get into than Korsun Pocket.
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
I've never played Korsun Pocket, but if you've played Uncommon Valor--HTTR is allot easier to pick up and get into.
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
I am experienced with the predecessor to Korsun Pocket - therfore I found Korsun Pocket easy to grasp.
HTTR is unique. Very unique. It is up to you whether you find it easy or hard. Like many things, it depends upon whether you use the artisitc side of your brain or the logic side. Most use a part of both but some use one side more than the other.
HTTR is a "both" type of game. [:D]
HTTR is unique. Very unique. It is up to you whether you find it easy or hard. Like many things, it depends upon whether you use the artisitc side of your brain or the logic side. Most use a part of both but some use one side more than the other.
HTTR is a "both" type of game. [:D]
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
It's been a long time since I wore my 'L' plates in HTTR [:)] However, our feedback has generally been along the following lines:
1. People who don't read and play through the tutorials (included in the printed manual, with a separate pdf file in the patch, available through TrueUpdate) find it hard to get into. I remember having a similar experience with the demo of RDOA (no longer in print) and was unable to win a scenario until I had read through the tutorials. The tutorials in HTTR are vastly better as learning tools than that in RDOA, too.
2. People who do read and play through the tutorials find the interface pretty simple and intuitive. The basics of the game are easy to grasp if you have a handle on military 'common sense'. If you don't, learning the basics of the game will help you to get that handle.
3. The command structure means it does take a little while to get the 'hang' of getting the most out of your AI subordinates, but this is usually balanced by the amount of work that is taken off the player simply by him not having to tell every unit exactly what to do all the time. For some players learning to delegate and trust the friendly AI is a challenge, for others it comes naturally and is a bit of a relief from micromanagement.
4. The continuous flow of the game can be a bit of a shock to players who are used to turn-based games, but the pause function allows you to play it as a turn-based game; you just decide when the turns should start and end. One of our beta testers tells me he always pauses the game before giving any order [:)]. Personally I find the continuous flow to be very intuitive, it helps me to get a sense for how things are flowing and at what pace, so I can get a 'feel' for the battle. Turn-based games break things up and make it hard for me to tell who is moving where and how fast.
5. There is a great deal of information available to the player about the status and activity of your units, but you can play at a basic level without worrying too much about it. This is not a spreadsheet wargame where you need to constantly calculate odds and numbers in your head. Also, although the detail is modelled and has an effect in the game, it doeesn't require specific input from the player, so it doesn't add to your workload.
6. Orders delay can be a tricky concept for some players. It represents the time taken in real life between a commander making a decision and his subordinates beginning to carry it out - the process of writing up orders, sending out the coded radio message or a jeep messenger or even a runner, and the subordinate developing a plan and passing it on to his troops. It means you need to read the battle and think ahead a bit, since orders may take up to a couple of hours to go through; and it means you have to weigh up whether to change an order for an activity already in progress and accept some disorganisation, or leave a less-than-perfect plan in execution and accept the results of that. It can also be turned off, in which case your units will respond instantly to your commands, and it can also be set at a couple of intermediate levels if you need to take some practice to get used to the idea.
7. There is a fair bit of flexibility in the game to accommodate different play styles. You can play it at full speed and never pause, you can pause occasionally when things get really busy, or you can pause every time you give orders - all without affecting the result at all; you can macromanage and only give orders to senior HQs, you can micromanage and give orders to every single counter (mainly Coy and Pl), or you can mix the two and create battlegroups at different levels for different purposes; you can play with orders delay turned off, allowing instant reaction to battlefield events, or you can dial it right up, forcing you to think well ahead, or you can set it in between.
You can check out the various AARs in the AAR forum, and you can also check out MarkShot's excellent "Tips" thread (sticky, at the top of this forum) to get a feel for how other people are playing the game and what sort of techniques are useful.
Regards
33
1. People who don't read and play through the tutorials (included in the printed manual, with a separate pdf file in the patch, available through TrueUpdate) find it hard to get into. I remember having a similar experience with the demo of RDOA (no longer in print) and was unable to win a scenario until I had read through the tutorials. The tutorials in HTTR are vastly better as learning tools than that in RDOA, too.
2. People who do read and play through the tutorials find the interface pretty simple and intuitive. The basics of the game are easy to grasp if you have a handle on military 'common sense'. If you don't, learning the basics of the game will help you to get that handle.
3. The command structure means it does take a little while to get the 'hang' of getting the most out of your AI subordinates, but this is usually balanced by the amount of work that is taken off the player simply by him not having to tell every unit exactly what to do all the time. For some players learning to delegate and trust the friendly AI is a challenge, for others it comes naturally and is a bit of a relief from micromanagement.
4. The continuous flow of the game can be a bit of a shock to players who are used to turn-based games, but the pause function allows you to play it as a turn-based game; you just decide when the turns should start and end. One of our beta testers tells me he always pauses the game before giving any order [:)]. Personally I find the continuous flow to be very intuitive, it helps me to get a sense for how things are flowing and at what pace, so I can get a 'feel' for the battle. Turn-based games break things up and make it hard for me to tell who is moving where and how fast.
5. There is a great deal of information available to the player about the status and activity of your units, but you can play at a basic level without worrying too much about it. This is not a spreadsheet wargame where you need to constantly calculate odds and numbers in your head. Also, although the detail is modelled and has an effect in the game, it doeesn't require specific input from the player, so it doesn't add to your workload.
6. Orders delay can be a tricky concept for some players. It represents the time taken in real life between a commander making a decision and his subordinates beginning to carry it out - the process of writing up orders, sending out the coded radio message or a jeep messenger or even a runner, and the subordinate developing a plan and passing it on to his troops. It means you need to read the battle and think ahead a bit, since orders may take up to a couple of hours to go through; and it means you have to weigh up whether to change an order for an activity already in progress and accept some disorganisation, or leave a less-than-perfect plan in execution and accept the results of that. It can also be turned off, in which case your units will respond instantly to your commands, and it can also be set at a couple of intermediate levels if you need to take some practice to get used to the idea.
7. There is a fair bit of flexibility in the game to accommodate different play styles. You can play it at full speed and never pause, you can pause occasionally when things get really busy, or you can pause every time you give orders - all without affecting the result at all; you can macromanage and only give orders to senior HQs, you can micromanage and give orders to every single counter (mainly Coy and Pl), or you can mix the two and create battlegroups at different levels for different purposes; you can play with orders delay turned off, allowing instant reaction to battlefield events, or you can dial it right up, forcing you to think well ahead, or you can set it in between.
You can check out the various AARs in the AAR forum, and you can also check out MarkShot's excellent "Tips" thread (sticky, at the top of this forum) to get a feel for how other people are playing the game and what sort of techniques are useful.
Regards
33
Steve Golf33 Long
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
Well, this sounds like it might be right up my alley!
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Barbarossa
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:00 pm
- Location: London
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
I found it to be incredibly easy to get into though haven't mastered it yet. This is in contrast to Korsun Pocket which I struggled with - I didn't find it difficult to play I just found it difficult to implement anything significant.
HTTR is by far and away the easiest to grasp "complex" military strategy game I have ever played.
Patrick
HTTR is by far and away the easiest to grasp "complex" military strategy game I have ever played.
Patrick
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RobertWevodau
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:15 pm
- Location: Bear, DE
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
jpinard,
I have both KP and HTTR, and I like them both. I will say that HTTR is easier for me to understand and play with some degree of skill. KP seems to have more "rules" to understand, and I sometimes feel just absolutely overwhelmed by the number of counters on the battlefield. So I generally play the smaller scenarios - at least so far.
On the other hand, the ability to command at any level in HTTR (as described so well by Golf33 above) is very appealing to me and helps me understand the game system, which is very well done. My suggestion is to give HTTR try. It's great fun and not too difficult to play. And I support Golf33's advice to do the tutorials first; they are the best tutorials I have ever seen in any game.
Robert
I have both KP and HTTR, and I like them both. I will say that HTTR is easier for me to understand and play with some degree of skill. KP seems to have more "rules" to understand, and I sometimes feel just absolutely overwhelmed by the number of counters on the battlefield. So I generally play the smaller scenarios - at least so far.
On the other hand, the ability to command at any level in HTTR (as described so well by Golf33 above) is very appealing to me and helps me understand the game system, which is very well done. My suggestion is to give HTTR try. It's great fun and not too difficult to play. And I support Golf33's advice to do the tutorials first; they are the best tutorials I have ever seen in any game.
Robert
Robert W
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
My first exposure to the series was the predecessor, RDOA.
I pretty much lacked war gaming experience (only played CMBO before), strategy gaming experience (only played CIV series before), and ground warfare concepts.
As such, I found that the learning curve for the game mechanics and the interface were pretty straight forward provided that you read the documentation. However, I found that the learning to win was a very substantial curve due to my ignorance of concepts.
I would imagine that if you have the concepts and are willing to read the manual (hard copy manual included with small print and downloadable PDF as part of patch #1 with big print), then by the end of the first week you should be out of 100% learning mode and into playing for fun.
I pretty much lacked war gaming experience (only played CMBO before), strategy gaming experience (only played CIV series before), and ground warfare concepts.
As such, I found that the learning curve for the game mechanics and the interface were pretty straight forward provided that you read the documentation. However, I found that the learning to win was a very substantial curve due to my ignorance of concepts.
I would imagine that if you have the concepts and are willing to read the manual (hard copy manual included with small print and downloadable PDF as part of patch #1 with big print), then by the end of the first week you should be out of 100% learning mode and into playing for fun.
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
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EricGuitarJames
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:02 am
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RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
ORIGINAL: jpinard
Well, this sounds like it might be right up my alley!
A lot depends on your previous computer-gaming experience. If, like me, you come from an RTS background you'll find HTTR a breeze to get into. If you're more used to turn-based then its real-time nature might cause you a few headaches. I own both games but its HTTR that I keep coming back to - not because it is easier to get into in terms of technical issues but I find it that much more immersive.
It's Just a Ride!
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
This game is probably one of the easiest games out there to pick up and start playing. Everything makes sense. The interface is got to be about the smoothest (read that as best) that ever sat on a game.
There are some difficult things to understand as far as how units react to orders (because there are so many variations) but they are not required to *play* the game. They sit there not bothering you until you are ready to use them.
As the AI has a brain unlike so many games out there, you can actually learn against it. The game doesn't cheat to make itself hard, it follows standard military logic which really helps to untrain you from many of the other games out there and make you start doing things right.
I just can't say enough about this one of a kind. I highly recommend it to anyone who has even the slightest interests in war games because it is very easy to get into even with little to no experience at war gaming due to the interface. Most war games are aimed at grognards. This one covers the whole range from super newbie to advanced grognard.
Add to this an excellent manual and great editors and you come away wondering why it is so cheap???
There are some difficult things to understand as far as how units react to orders (because there are so many variations) but they are not required to *play* the game. They sit there not bothering you until you are ready to use them.
As the AI has a brain unlike so many games out there, you can actually learn against it. The game doesn't cheat to make itself hard, it follows standard military logic which really helps to untrain you from many of the other games out there and make you start doing things right.
I just can't say enough about this one of a kind. I highly recommend it to anyone who has even the slightest interests in war games because it is very easy to get into even with little to no experience at war gaming due to the interface. Most war games are aimed at grognards. This one covers the whole range from super newbie to advanced grognard.
Add to this an excellent manual and great editors and you come away wondering why it is so cheap???
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
C’mon Mr Frag stop hedging, if you don’t like it just say so. [:D]
(Actually I couldn’t agree with you more.)
Ray
(Actually I couldn’t agree with you more.)
Ray
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HercMighty
- Posts: 397
- Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:09 pm
- Location: Minnesota, USA
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
I haven't played Korsun since I got HTTR many months ago. Though I am looking at getting Battlefields! as that looks very well done for turn based.
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
HTTR is an easy game to get into but really a hard game to master except for Yakstock. HTTR is much more realistic; its AI is the best. Korsun pocket has a lot of arbitrary rules and the AI plays the rulebook.
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
Would you believe that I am a beta tester and I still find myself wishing that I had more free time to play HTTR. 
You can get into this game quickly, but I suspect there is always room for improvement. I just completed a game I was playing to test the patch on Sunday evening. I just barely missed getting a decisive victory. I just knew that I could have done better. Well, next time ...
You can get into this game quickly, but I suspect there is always room for improvement. I just completed a game I was playing to test the patch on Sunday evening. I just barely missed getting a decisive victory. I just knew that I could have done better. Well, next time ...
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2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
Well FWIW I bought KP when it first came out and went through the tutorials and tried to start playing it but it just never grabbed me I guess and went on to other things. As someone said, too many "rules" and tables and then a roll of the dice etc. Had just put it back on the HD and went through the tutorials again and had just started a scenario, just looking at all the counters to deal with was daunting. THEN along came HTTR and the fun factor went WAY UP! And I've only really touched on it. Being able to just worry about the overall battle plan and watching my HQ's handle the dirty work is a dream. Yes I can drill down to an individual unit and give it direct order if need be (can the next patch allow us to court-martial officers who can't carry out an order????) and just as easily reattach them. Still learning little tricks (like selecting all units, which shows all orders and waypoints, to get an overall view/feel for the battle field). As I go on I want to start paying more attention to Commanders and individual unit characteristics to impliment the battle plan, and it's all there, if you want to get that detailed and micromanagment like it's there to be used or you can just sit back and order your HQ's and watch the plan develope.
Maybe I'll go back to KP one day and try it again, but for the future as far as I can see HTTR is the game of choice for me.
Maybe I'll go back to KP one day and try it again, but for the future as far as I can see HTTR is the game of choice for me.
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Adam Parker
- Posts: 1848
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- Location: Melbourne Australia
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
I believe this game would be an ideal entry point to anyone seriously contemplating making war gaming or military history a hobby. And for those of us already knee deep in it, the facination with the design is an easy one to make.
For a complete newbie to the genre there are 2 resources I recommend be owned:
1. A basic guide to the campaign so that there's some idea as to the forces controlled (a complete newbie would do well not to look at the enemy's order of battle at all - you lucky guys!)
2. A basic guide to a military table of organisation so that the process of learning the command hierachy is facilitated. You will need to know how a corps relates to a division all the way down platoon.
The only thing that may be of real complexity to even a seasoned gamer given this campaign to game, is the make-up of the British Army! The names of units many times just don't make sense [:D]. One wonders if historically, this was a British attempt to confuse the enemy... but we really do know that to men of society, nomenclature was simply a thing of beauty [;)]
Adam.
For a complete newbie to the genre there are 2 resources I recommend be owned:
1. A basic guide to the campaign so that there's some idea as to the forces controlled (a complete newbie would do well not to look at the enemy's order of battle at all - you lucky guys!)
2. A basic guide to a military table of organisation so that the process of learning the command hierachy is facilitated. You will need to know how a corps relates to a division all the way down platoon.
The only thing that may be of real complexity to even a seasoned gamer given this campaign to game, is the make-up of the British Army! The names of units many times just don't make sense [:D]. One wonders if historically, this was a British attempt to confuse the enemy... but we really do know that to men of society, nomenclature was simply a thing of beauty [;)]
Adam.
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
A fair bit of that sort of information is contained in the Strategy Guide, which will hopefully be on sale in the near future.
Regards
33
Regards
33
Steve Golf33 Long
RE: Is this easier to get into and play than Korsun Pocket?
ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
The only thing that may be of real complexity to even a seasoned gamer given this campaign to game, is the make-up of the British Army! The names of units many times just don't make sense [:D]. One wonders if historically, this was a British attempt to confuse the enemy... but we really do know that to men of society, nomenclature was simply a thing of beauty [;)]
Adam.
Adam, I think it was done (is still done) to confuse ourselves!
Ray