Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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pauk
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: swagman
ORIGINAL: CommC

I agree with you 1000%, swagman.

UV is remarkable in that it gives the player nearly complete control over things that matter little, while giving the player little control over the things that matter the most... and leaves those important decisions to an AI (I use this term loosely) that manages to botch things horribly. Friendly AI is just as flawedas enemy AI, making PBEM against another human player equally pointless.

This is the gist of my criticism of UV. Wish I had said it.

Many responses have misinterpreted my complaint to be about the AI when playing a computer opponent. While the computer opponent leaves much to be desired, I am infact talking about the tactical AI which runs battles for both human and computer players. Battles are run by the TG AI commander, however, the nature of the simple AI beast means the TG commander acts in complete ignorance and independently of anything else. For example, if we set React to Enemy ON for a decoy carrier group with no aircraft, would it turn away and retreat when the US carriers pursued or would it charge forward to meet them head on?

Historically, TG commanders were given information on a need to know basis, but he would have knowledge of, hear rumour and be influenced by overall strategic planning, local theatre imperatives and priorities, naval/command doctrinaire shifts, and theatre or higher mission commands. Whether he was informed of these or not, he would receive direction in his briefings and orders. All of these things influence how a real TG commander would act in a given battle and so result in a different decision outcome. However, the AI TG commander only knows how to fight battles one way, qualified by react to enemy and level of TG commander aggression.

In addition, the AI TG commander acts independently of higher command and other TG's. For example, surface fleets set to bombard always cut and run, even though as surface combat groups they would historically be expected to stay to protect transport convoys.

The point about the game being strategic is in reality inaccurate. The game is really simply non-tactical. Strategy was never about micro-management of logistics. I doubt that MacArthur or Nimitz spent 99.9% of their time telling port crews what to load onto which ship and which squadron was to be rested this week. They made plans and issued orders, and others ensured they were carrie dout that the transport fleet were available and loaded on time, just as local TG commanders launched strikes etc. Strategy is about making plans and issuing instructions which the local commanders will hopefully interpret and apply correctly and, in this, UV fails.

Certainly, the game is so complex it would probably take a decade, a Cray and a team of post-doctoral scientists to build an AI to satisfactorily deal with it. However, what I am describing is limited to automating the logistics and creating a basic command template so that the local AI TG commander will not act in isolation of strategic planning but will act more in unison with it.

In a game combat situation there are a limited number of action scenarios, depending on your own TG mission, your strategic mission, other friendly TG's nearby, the distance to them, the presence of enemy TG's, the distance to them and the type and number of enemy TG's.

I expect in UV and probably in WitP, these scenarios have been hard-coded into a set of rules that the AI TG commander carries out with very limited qualification. My suggestion is to allow these rules to be variable through the use of a "matrix of decisions" that reflect these various scenarios, that sets behaviour guidelines in different circumstances, and that includes a cascade effect of influence from the theatre commander, through the operational commanders to the TG commanders.

The developers come back will likely be that they can cover off 90% of cases by hard-coding the rules and the other 10% can be put down to the vagaries of the local commander, which the human player can to some degree remedy by micro-managing the task-group. Micro-managing task-group movements in an attempt to get around development issues is no more part of a strategic game than loading task-groups.

Would a decision matrix do much better? Probably not, but what it may do is more accurately model the decisions that do occur, particularly by including as a driving factor the orders of higher commanders. After all, no man is an island.


swagman, next time choose another nickname. Maybe it could be - Tolstoy.[;)]?
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denisonh
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RE: The UV is best and WitP will be even better...

Post by denisonh »

I'm with you on this one Leo.
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

For me personally the UV is the best wargame I ever had!!!

I am playing it for years now (yep - sounds strange doesn't it) and I am still immensely enjoying it every day!

The WitP will be icing on the cake (even better and bigger UV) - so no contest for me - again best game imaginable!!!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Please note that I played snail-mail chess when I was kid. The PBEM is lightning fast compared to that...
But if you had at least skimmed the post, instead of posting a glib and fundamentally dismissive response, you would have seen that a lot of his issues were with how the AI did things, period. Playing against the computer or against a human, there are many parts of the UV game-tree (its not really an AI because it doesn't make the slightest attempt to 'learn') that suck.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
emorbius44
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by emorbius44 »

Historically, TG commanders were given information on a need to know basis, but he would have knowledge of, hear rumour and be influenced by overall strategic planning, local theatre imperatives and priorities, naval/command doctrinaire shifts, and theatre or higher mission commands. Whether he was informed of these or not, he would receive direction in his briefings and orders. All of these things influence how a real TG commander would act in a given battle and so result in a different decision outcome. However, the AI TG commander only knows how to fight battles one way, qualified by react to enemy and level of TG commander aggression.

In addition, the AI TG commander acts independently of higher command and other TG's. For example, surface fleets set to bombard always cut and run, even though as surface combat groups they would historically be expected to stay to protect transport convoys.


Not if you assign them to patrol in place (I think, it's a little late right now as I write this.)


The point about the game being strategic is in reality inaccurate. The game is really simply non-tactical. Strategy was never about micro-management of logistics. I doubt that MacArthur or Nimitz spent 99.9% of their time telling port crews what to load onto which ship and which squadron was to be rested this week. They made plans and issued orders, and others ensured they were carrie dout that the transport fleet were available and loaded on time, just as local TG commanders launched strikes etc. Strategy is about making plans and issuing instructions which the local commanders will hopefully interpret and apply correctly and, in this, UV fails.

Certainly, the game is so complex it would probably take a decade, a Cray and a team of post-doctoral scientists to build an AI to satisfactorily deal with it. However, what I am describing is limited to automating the logistics and creating a basic command template so that the local AI TG commander will not act in isolation of strategic planning but will act more in unison with it.


You want a game where the AI does what you want it to. I'm sure Vandegrift would have preferred that when Fletcher cut and ran at Guadalcanal. Sprague would have liked it if Halsey hadn't been decoyed at Leyte Gulf..Yamamoto would have liked it if what's his name had finished the job at Savo, King would have liked if fletcher hand't dragged his feet releaving Wake island................The point is tactical commanders don't always do what they're told, especially in pacific warfare where chance, mis-identification and the like are more the norm then exception.
But I'll reiterate my main point. I've heard Grigsby knocked for years
but I have yet to see ONE functional game covering this subject other then Grigsby. Basically this is as good as it gets in this point in time and all the other guys who have had "better ideas" have flopped big time.
So you have the option of waiting a few decades for your perfect game (if it's ever done) or go with what's the best available at this point in time.



Bob
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

I expect the AI to be about as brain dead as ever, given the discussions here so far. I help beat the AI horse to death a few weeks ago. Understandably the budget is dedicated to realistic combat resolutions and history acuracy to the minutia. The AI will essentially be the same as wargame AI's were in the mid 1980's.

Hopefully this group will devote the first major patch to incorporating some cutting AI techniques and leave the minutia alone for a while.
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Gigantic post I didn't have nerves to read to the end. Sorry.

Answer is simple and very short - UV and WITP are games meant to be played and enjoyed against other human, ie. in PBEM, preferably in loonnnngish campaigns that will bring the best (and worst) in people. Yeah, I know, "I don't have time for PBEM" (I never undersood this argument but never mind). OK, then you'll have to accept playing vs. stupid AI, or not playing at all.

Case closed.

O.

Even though in my previous large thread on the AI where it seems over 80% of the potential market for this game will play solitare......including me. Sorry, pal, but you missed the boat badly on that remark.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You touch on a few issues that are actually bugs in UV and have been resolved or solutioned better in WitP producing better results.

You touch on other issues that are desired features that did not make the cut at this point in time due to the amount of work required to implement them.

You touch on AI stuff that simply put is completely beyond the capabilities of a small team of programmers for what amounts to a game that is for Advanced Grognards only. The AI will offer some fun (it plays a fair game, but not an expert game).

It will never be able to deal with the type of stuff you are talking about because that is beyond AI, it is Strategic Planning. Players have a tough time dealing with it all by themselves. To expect a game to be able to dynamically adjust it's overall game plan at a level where half of the humans who will play the game cannot is beyond being realistic.

I believe you might find something of that level being run on a couple of Cray computers at the DoD although from what I have picked up over the years, they barely have stuff as good as Harpoon 3 running.

As for your non-AI points, I think you will find WitP to be far more rewarding the UV due to the fact that there is no single "I win the game" event such as the famous UV "6 CV loss". The game has far more real estate, land battles are very much a major part of the game. Logistics will bring you to tears as it will be the overiding factor that controls everything you do (UV really sucked at this with virtually unlimited everything). The results of mauling a Tanker TF could mean that an entire operation needs to be put on hold for a couple of months because you can't fuel your ships. Aircraft management has shifted a long ways, with user control of upgrades and replacements. Fatigue will no longer destroy your units simply because you don't want to have to adjust cap every turn at a hundred odd bases. Additional mission types have been added to the game to further focus the goal of the naval units. Speed control and reaction ranges have been added to allow more player predictable results. Commanders are assignable down to the lowest level of command for a political price tag. Units belonging to different commands can not be tossed around the map with no logical plan because replacements show up with their parent HQ's.

All in all, there is much to love and there is also room for improvement with the addition of new features as time goes on. The key is that time has gone on and the game needs to be released. It could realistically sit in development for another ten years and there would still be things that could be added. The choice to buy or not is yours. Matrix & 2by3 have a great record for sticking behind their products after the sale. I've lost count of how many patches and features went into UV. Something of this scope (which makes UV look like a game of tic-tac-toe) will be likely to need patching. We have already seen their track record of delivering patchs.

If that is not good enough, you probably have a really long wait until something else comes out. Based on the trends of the last 10 years, the odds are pretty slim that there will *ever* be anything else of this scale attempted by any company.

The costs of developing just are not justified based on the very small market segment that buys them.


And once again, the assumption that a good AI is something that can only run on a massively parallel super computer completely misses the point of would make for a vastly improved AI for a game like UV. Something as simple as have two or three possible convoy routes between locations and using a random number generator for the AI to pick a different one each time so the human player can no longer just mass his subs in one single spot every time would be a TREMENDOUS AI improvement that requires minimal additional code. I have been one of those DOD AI programmers and you grossly overstate the case.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: pauk
ORIGINAL: swagman
ORIGINAL: CommC

I agree with you 1000%, swagman.

UV is remarkable in that it gives the player nearly complete control over things that matter little, while giving the player little control over the things that matter the most... and leaves those important decisions to an AI (I use this term loosely) that manages to botch things horribly. Friendly AI is just as flawedas enemy AI, making PBEM against another human player equally pointless.

This is the gist of my criticism of UV. Wish I had said it.

Many responses have misinterpreted my complaint to be about the AI when playing a computer opponent. While the computer opponent leaves much to be desired, I am infact talking about the tactical AI which runs battles for both human and computer players. Battles are run by the TG AI commander, however, the nature of the simple AI beast means the TG commander acts in complete ignorance and independently of anything else. For example, if we set React to Enemy ON for a decoy carrier group with no aircraft, would it turn away and retreat when the US carriers pursued or would it charge forward to meet them head on?

Historically, TG commanders were given information on a need to know basis, but he would have knowledge of, hear rumour and be influenced by overall strategic planning, local theatre imperatives and priorities, naval/command doctrinaire shifts, and theatre or higher mission commands. Whether he was informed of these or not, he would receive direction in his briefings and orders. All of these things influence how a real TG commander would act in a given battle and so result in a different decision outcome. However, the AI TG commander only knows how to fight battles one way, qualified by react to enemy and level of TG commander aggression.

In addition, the AI TG commander acts independently of higher command and other TG's. For example, surface fleets set to bombard always cut and run, even though as surface combat groups they would historically be expected to stay to protect transport convoys.

The point about the game being strategic is in reality inaccurate. The game is really simply non-tactical. Strategy was never about micro-management of logistics. I doubt that MacArthur or Nimitz spent 99.9% of their time telling port crews what to load onto which ship and which squadron was to be rested this week. They made plans and issued orders, and others ensured they were carrie dout that the transport fleet were available and loaded on time, just as local TG commanders launched strikes etc. Strategy is about making plans and issuing instructions which the local commanders will hopefully interpret and apply correctly and, in this, UV fails.

Certainly, the game is so complex it would probably take a decade, a Cray and a team of post-doctoral scientists to build an AI to satisfactorily deal with it. However, what I am describing is limited to automating the logistics and creating a basic command template so that the local AI TG commander will not act in isolation of strategic planning but will act more in unison with it.

In a game combat situation there are a limited number of action scenarios, depending on your own TG mission, your strategic mission, other friendly TG's nearby, the distance to them, the presence of enemy TG's, the distance to them and the type and number of enemy TG's.

I expect in UV and probably in WitP, these scenarios have been hard-coded into a set of rules that the AI TG commander carries out with very limited qualification. My suggestion is to allow these rules to be variable through the use of a "matrix of decisions" that reflect these various scenarios, that sets behaviour guidelines in different circumstances, and that includes a cascade effect of influence from the theatre commander, through the operational commanders to the TG commanders.

The developers come back will likely be that they can cover off 90% of cases by hard-coding the rules and the other 10% can be put down to the vagaries of the local commander, which the human player can to some degree remedy by micro-managing the task-group. Micro-managing task-group movements in an attempt to get around development issues is no more part of a strategic game than loading task-groups.

Would a decision matrix do much better? Probably not, but what it may do is more accurately model the decisions that do occur, particularly by including as a driving factor the orders of higher commanders. After all, no man is an island.


swagman, next time choose another nickname. Maybe it could be - Tolstoy.[;)]?

Main point being, substantial AI improvements can be made without having to deploy massive neural net, expert subsystems! Even at it's simplest level, hard coded AI strategy can be improved greatly by just have larger numbers of them for the AI to choose from based on a periodic review of the strategic state of the game.
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Mr.Frag
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Mr.Frag »

You consider a couple of random waypoints AI???

The AI plans paths to avoid know air concentrations. THAT is AI, not random waypoints as you would think as a solution. It never stops amazing me just how trivial people tend to think of things when complaining about stuff, yet they come back with even crappier solutions then nothing at all.

Any idiot can write a random number generator. It does not equal AI.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Gee, in the time it took me to rattle off a response, Mr. Frag shows up and provides a good response.


I don't know about Swagman, but it sounds pretty good to me.
[:)]


Still probably won't do the full campaign on PBEM though, I just don't have that kind of patience!
[X(]

I remember one of Gary's original classics, North Atlantic '86. The strikes against carrier TF's even way back then, were resolved brilliantly. Unless you had whittled down the number of picket ships you almost NEVER even got a shot on the carrier. You had to progress through the screening ships first as the carriers were in middle of the TF. If you tried to bore in on the carrier you got shot down (or your missles were jammed or shot down themselves) long before you could get to the capital ships.

It seems the resolution engine has gotten more stupid over the years and the largest ships invariably take the greatest number of hits, which is not usually the case. Maybe in WWII it was without the availablilty of SAMs and such. But even then, an attacker had to brave several layers of lead walls of AA to get deep into the TF where the carreirs or battleships or transports existed.
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Mr.Frag
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Mr.Frag »

Zoomie, this is 1941-1945 ... I think you need to pull out some history books. Start with Coral Sea, move on to Midway then come back and post just how silly what you just said is.

I understand that most folks are not old enough to remember WWII, but come on, at least try and get your complaints in within a couple of decades of reality. What are you going to complain about next? subs not having enough range because their nuclear reactor keeps running out of fuel? [8|]
PeckingFury
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by PeckingFury »

The way you want the AI to behave can only be achieved thru pbem against another human. I really dont understand the "PBEM takes too long" responses. If I was going to sit thru and waste time waiting for the AI to complete its move why not do the same with a human? takes just as long. Only thing you can not do with a human is reload when the AI opens that can of whoop ass.
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You consider a couple of random waypoints AI???

The AI plans paths to avoid know air concentrations. THAT is AI, not random waypoints as you would think as a solution. It never stops amazing me just how trivial people tend to think of things when complaining about stuff, yet they come back with even crappier solutions then nothing at all.

Any idiot can write a random number generator. It does not equal AI.

Well, Mr Frag or whatever your real name is, I have been programming for over 30 years. And I have programmed AI for the US military, I have been one of those DOD Cray developers you refer to over and over again, as well as a developer of market simulations for investment firms. I KNOW what I am talking about. Been there done that, probably before your face ever saw a shaver.

Multiple possible routes, even considering enemy air zones of control, are things one almost NEVER sees from the computer player. We no longer even see the MOST SIMPLE things in computer game AI's anymore! I know why, and the why is always claimed to be money and budget. But a LOT of that is nothing more than an excuse for a pack of programmers who simply have no intellectual interest in the subject matter. So you create the straw man, Mr Cray, and then burn him.

And yes, I'm not even talking "AI", just a computer opponent that is something other than 100% PREDICTABLE. Even if the whole damned thing is hard coded with no "intelligence" at all!

Get a clue, fellows. NO ONE will be a "master" at this game other than the developers themselves. Not a game that has over 2000 turns. 80% or more will be SOLITARE players. Got that? S-O-L-I-T-A-R-E!!!!!! Not PBEM. And most of that 80% will be bored stiff before they get 150 turns in if the AI is a useless as the UV version.

Consider that lesson 1 in basic marketing. You are spending a LOT of time addressing issues the fanatical few that post here daily instead of the masses who will actually be providing your return on your investment. So do you develop a game that the 50 die hard grognards who post here will buy or something the other 100,000+ possible players might buy?
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

The way you want the AI to behave can only be achieved thru pbem against another human. I really dont understand the "PBEM takes too long" responses. If I was going to sit thru and waste time waiting for the AI to complete its move why not do the same with a human? takes just as long. Only thing you can not do with a human is reload when the AI opens that can of whoop ass.

Once again, another poster who simply doesn't get it. The Chess analogy simply does not apply. And sorry to say it, but once again. 80% WILL be solitare players, period.

If this group wants a human only game then put it on a game server and offer it via subscription in the vogue of the old Empire internet game and forget a boxed, shelf game altogether.
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Zoomie, this is 1941-1945 ... I think you need to pull out some history books. Start with Coral Sea, move on to Midway then come back and post just how silly what you just said is.

I understand that most folks are not old enough to remember WWII, but come on, at least try and get your complaints in within a couple of decades of reality. What are you going to complain about next? subs not having enough range because their nuclear reactor keeps running out of fuel? [8|]

Screening vessles were used even in WWI. Someone else needs to read some history. BTW, I'm a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. I could teach Military History in any University in the country, smartass.
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Mr.Frag
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Mr.Frag »

So gee, let me get this straight, I tell you the AI is actually got better then your little silly system of random waypoints and you still complain about the game not having it. Have a nice day, you're not worth my typing effort.
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Rendova
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Rendova »

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Well, Mr Frag or whatever your real name is

Wait your name is really Zoomie1980?[8|]
ZOOMIE1980
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

So gee, let me get this straight, I tell you the AI is actually got better then your little silly system of random waypoints and you still complain about the game not having it. Have a nice day, you're not worth my typing effort.

The proof will be in the pudding, pal. We'll see, won't we? You cohort, Mr Mugami, has already stated it will be about the same lame-assed AI UV had, which is, basically, pathetic. And it's a SAD thing indeed, that your AI doesn;t even deploy something basic and SIMPLE as multiple possible destination paths???? LOL!!!

So far, nothing more than the standard litany of excuses.....lame as ever. Bottom line, it is a programming discipline neither of you two have any intellectual interest in and that is the main reason why the AI is still 1985 vintage.
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Fred98 »

The only way to play is PBEM. Apart from a poor AI, a human can be cunning - an AI cannot.

If you feel a scenario is too long then choose a shorter scenario.
-
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
S-O-L-I-T-A-R-E!!!!!!

Umm, that would be S-O-L-I-T-A-I-R-E, genius.

If you are a person of such sophistication as you claim, you would realize that you're not going to win allies or influence people by being shrill and overbearing.

I advocate stronger investment in, and research into, improved AI, as well, but you're not going to get it this way.

If you are, as you purport to be, a fellow former U.S.A.F. officer, consider me embarrassed.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
Mike Scholl
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RE: Convince me WITP will be worth playing

Post by Mike Scholl »

ZOOMIE. Since SWAGMAN knows exactly what this game really needs, and you are
such a genius at writing code---why don't the two of you get together and do this game
right? I for one would cheerfully buy another game on this subject that actually had
an AI that would provide a truely intelligent opponant. And if you two can do it, you
can sell your "brilliant AI technology" to 2by3 and a lot of other companies too stupid
to build one on their own. Then everybody will have exactly what they want.
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