Russians/Manchuria - Impact?

[Subchaser]

In ’39 there were no Germans near Moscow and on Volga river. It’s different story. In 1941 all these forces, I mean men and machines, not units designations, were on the Ost front.

[mogami]

Hi I think they would be on the 3anaAHo (West) front. Manchuria is the East Front for the Soviets.

[Luskan]

If the japs can use torpedoes in port (gasp!) and 800kg bombs (double gasp) and beat china, they should also be able to take moscow by 43.

If not the game is broken. [8|] - oops - I meant the historical simulation!

Ok - all trolling aside, the sheer number of russian units, troops and squadrons in such proximity in asia . . . well only the masochist would mess with the russians even slightly. I'm in favour of just having the game end when the russians enter - you aren't going to have any fun as the ijn after they do!

[mogami]

Hi, No I think they are looking to invade the Soviet far East and capture more oil and resource and heavy industry.

I'm not sure what they plan on doing in 1943.

[Subchaser]

Hi I think they would be on the 3anaAHo (West) front. Manchuria is the East Front for the Soviets.

You didn’t spell it right Mogami, although you’re right of course.

[Subchaser]

ORIGINAL: Luskan

If the japs can use torpedoes in port (gasp!) and 800kg bombs (double gasp) and beat china, they should also be able to take moscow by 43.

Well Moscow by 43 is too much, but capture of Soviet Far East in 1942, at least part of it, should be possible. However this should trigger major Soviet offensive in late ’44 or even earlier. So, after all, you’re right, attack of USSR means unavoidable defeat for IJN as soon as in mid ‘44.

[Damien Thorn]

A Japanese invasion of the soviet union should have a chance for Soviet forces being redeployed from the European theater to the far east. Then, there should be a check to see if the loss of these forces causes the fall of Moscow. If that happens then the USSR should pull almost everything they have in the far east out and send it to fight the Germans before the USSR gets completely conquered.

[mogami]

Hi, The Soviets would not have to risk losing Moscow. The Japanese can only go so far before they too run out of supply. At the farthest point the Japanese reach the Soviets will only need a thin line that grows stronger over time.

[sven6345789]

point is, if the japanese wouldn't have signed a treaty with the soviet union in 1941, they never would have ventured south in the first place. it is correct that the OOB of the soviet forces was not much to write folks home about in 1942-1943, since the siberian divisions which gave the japanese quite a beating at nomonhan had gone to fight the germans.
But then again the Divisions attacking the germans during Dec. 41 weren't that well equipped either. An attack on the soviet union by japan would have cost enormous ammounts of troops, supply and air groups. These forces will be missed in the south.
Taking up a fight against another enemy won't make sense, esspecially since one of the already existent enemies will slash you to bits in 1944.
The resources you need can be gained in the south much more easier.

[mdiehl]

A Japanese invasion of the soviet union should have a chance for Soviet forces being redeployed from the European theater to the far east. Then, there should be a check to see if the loss of these forces causes the fall of Moscow. If that happens then the USSR should pull almost everything they have in the far east out and send it to fight the Germans before the USSR gets completely conquered.

Classic. A Japanese invasion of the USSR should stimulate two ineffectual countermarches resulting in a victory for both the Germans and Japanese. Riiiiiight.

A few basic problems with the argument. 1. The Germans didn't have an ice cube's chance in hell of conquering "completely" the USSR, even after their best days in summer 1941. Their supply train was not up to the task of sustaining the Wehrmacht, short about 30% of its men and material after 6 months, in Ukraine. 2. The Soviets would almost certainly have had more than sufficient reserves to deal with both threats concurrently. At most, this scenario reduces the scale of the Soviet counteroffensive following the relief of Stalingrad. It may mean that the rag tag remnants of German 6th AG escape to bolster the late war defense of the Reich, but it's not going to help the Japanese one iota, and Germany isn't going to conquer anything more than they seized by late October 1942. 3. Frankly, the USSR has lots of barren waste in Siberia to temporarily lend to Japan. Let the IJA in, let a big logistical commitment be made, then grind the whole thing up into shards. Is there a Russian phrase for "Tar Baby?"

[mdiehl]

An attack on the soviet union by japan would have cost enormous ammounts of troops, supply and air groups.

I don't think so. One Soviet mech corps and its artillery reserve would have substantially out-gunned any number of troops that the Japanese could have thrown at the problem.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

An attack on the soviet union by japan would have cost enormous ammounts of troops, supply and air groups.

I don't think so. One Soviet mech corps and its artillery reserve would have substantially out-gunned any number of troops that the Japanese could have thrown at the problem.

Oh yeah, mdiehl. [8|] The Soviet far east forces were really all powerful by 42. Please, most everyone on this forum already knows that the real soviet forces had long since been stripped and sent to fight on the front lines. The rag tags that eventually came out of the far east soviet forces were so primitive as to be laughable. The ones that eventually invaded Berlin were so impressed with light bulbs that they looted them, thinking they would work in their tents and huts back home.

[mdiehl]

You miss my point. The USSR had almost as many uncommitted divisions (held in reserve for pending offensives) as the entire Japanese army had divisions in continental Asia. I think when you project how many divisions Japan might have spared (a WW1 army at that), you can find more than enough countering Soviet infantry and mech divisions to avert any crisis in Siberia. That's what I mean when I said that at most it means delaying or scaling back some of the January 1943 Soviet counteroffensive on the German front.

But what the heck, it's not so important that it's worth getting into a flame war about.

[mogami]

Hi, Germany under estimated the size of the active Soviet Army prior to the 42 offensive by over a million men. Stalingrad was not a product of the Soviets not having troops. The Soviets were holding back over a million troops in 42 to use in their Winter offensive.
The Soviets had more troops in 1941 and 1942 then they could move.

[pad152]

Japan vs. Russia might make a very intersting scenerio if the editor is up to it

[Mr.Frag]

Japan vs. Russia might make a very intersting scenerio if the editor is up to it

You don't need a scenario, just launch an Air Attack against Russia on Dec 7th, 1941 and see what happens. [:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Japan vs. Russia might make a very intersting scenerio if the editor is up to it

In case it wasn't known......the game will ship with a "Manchuria 1945" scenerio.
You havn't seen combat assault values till you've seen the ones generated by a Soviet mech corp [:'(]

[Mr.Frag]

I don't have the heart to play that one Nik, it is sad enough playing the Marianas when the USA simply builds a road out of all their CV's directly to Saipan and the troops just take the bus [:(]

[Nikademus]

It ended up being more interesting in playtest than i thought it would be (and I played Japan to Pry's Ruskie!)

The Russians have the power....but they've only got 30 days to use it.

[mogami]

Hi, The Russians over ran the 700,000 Japanese in Manchuria in 10 days.