Russians/Manchuria - Impact?

[barbarrossa]

The Siberian divisions were sent west to save Moscow precisely because the USSR was on the "ropes".

Why worry about the Japanese thousands of miles away when Army Group Center can see the spires of the Kremlin a few miles away? Granted they were frozen in place by -30C temperatures[;)] But when the enemy can see your capital with thier own eyes, you're on the ropes.

I think neither the Soviets or the Japanese were prepared to take action in this area, and the non-agression pact gave them each cover.

Oh well, it's fun to speculate[:'(]

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I think this screen shot ilustrates why messing with Russia is a bad idea.

The black circle is the range of a B-17 flying out of Russia against Japan.

Under NO circumstances should Americna forces be able to base out of Russian areas. Russians interned (and reverse-engineered) American planes that landed at their bases (usually due to damage). If the game allows the Allied player to base Americna units in Russian areas it is wrong and needs to be fixed before the game ships.

[Splinterhead]

The B17s could be based in the USSR IF the Japanese attack the USSR. That is what the screen shot shows.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Splinterhead

The B17s could be based in the USSR IF the Japanese attack the USSR. That is what the screen shot shows.

I know and I think that is wrong. Did American planes fly missions from Russia? I believe all American crews were interned and the planes taken apart if they fell into Russian hands. Americna was too concerned with the Communists stealing secrets to let their planes base there. As it was, the Russian were able to reverse-engineer the B-29 and were making their own exact copies shortly after the war.

[paullus99]

You guys should read David Downing's "The Moscow Option." Hitler is in a coma from an air accident coming back from his meeting with Guderian before Smolensk - giving his generals free reign to go right for Moscow - capturing the city in September 1941.

The Japanese win at Midway (no Coral Sea operation, so you have Zuikaku, Shokaku & Shoho there as well) destroying the American Carrier Fleet under Halsey. With Russia really on the ropes, the Japanese invade Siberia & get their ass handed to them by Rossikosky (sp)?.

Yamamoto - unable to convince the Army to release enough troops to invade Hawaii, sends his carriers to raid the West Coast (bombing Los Angeles & San Diego) & finally attack the Panama Canal.

Fletcher (the surviving carrier admiral from the Midway debacle) catches Nagumo off guard with Saratoga & Wasp (Ranger is there too, but she's on the other side of the canal, released just in time from convoy duty) and sends Akagi, Soryu, Shokaku & Zuikaku to the bottom.

Downing ends the book at the end of 1942 - with the Germans tied down in the Southern Caucausus & Northern Iran and the Russians ready to launch their first counteroffensive- and 8th Army fighting a successful battle against Rommel in Palestine.

A pretty good book - wish he would continue the war. Very interesting with some of the changes on the Pacific side of things.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

Under NO circumstances should Americna forces be able to base out of Russian areas. Russians interned (and reverse-engineered) American planes that landed at their bases (usually due to damage). If the game allows the Allied player to base Americna units in Russian areas it is wrong and needs to be fixed before the game ships.

TYPICAL "Japanese Fan-Boy" response. Yes, the Russians "interred" a number of US
aircraft that were forced to make landings in the Soviet Union. But that was because
they were "neutral" in the Pacific War at the time. And they didn't want the Japanese
to have any excuse to interfere with the steady flow of "lend-lease" supplies they were
bringing in through Vladavostok. But if the Japanese "attack" the Russians, all bets
are off. Stalin permitted a few "Ferry Raids" over Germany to use Russian Bases in
the West..., and if it meant getting more American Aid you can bet he'd have made
some kind of arraingement in the Far East as well. B-17's require too much logistical
support to be practical, but Tactical Airpower (B-25's, B-26's, P-38's and the like)
could be supportted and would make the Japanese miserable in the Sea of Japan area

[Nikademus]

off the top of my head this morning (and sans coffee as of yet) i believe that later in the war, once the strategic bombing campaign switched into high gear, the Americans finally got the Russians to agree to supporting some "shuttle" runs. (bomb Germany from England....then continue on and land in Russia)

The Russians were suprisingly instransic about allowing Allied units to operate in Russia . They only "interned" Allied aircrews if they were operating against a country Russia was not yet at war with.

It was done on a few occaisions, but it was not as easy as it would be in WitP if the Russians "activate"

[mdiehl]

I know and I think that is wrong. Did American planes fly missions from Russia? I believe all American crews were interned and the planes taken apart if they fell into Russian hands.

What Mike said. In re Japan, the USSR was officially "neutral." Internment was the legal international policy with respect to a combatant entering neutral territory. USSR's treatment of American aviators who wound up in Siberia as a result of combat with Japan was no different from Switzerland, Sweden and Spain's treatment of Allied aviators who wound up in their nations as a result of combat with Italians or Germans. Upon declaring war against the USSR, the Japanese would have made the US and USSR allies against Japan as they were against the Euro-Axis. There were, indeed, as Nikademus mentioned, shuttle bombing efforts against German targets from, iirc, 15th AF from the Med. The UK also supplied a small logistical and garrison force for Archangel. It was a bone of contention with Churchill that the UK troops there did not receive much cooperation or friendliness, but then Churchill and Stalin were uneasy allies. The USSR considered the US a much safer (in effect, naive and less duplicitous) capitalist ally, and might have requested US garrison forces in a pinch.

So the evidence, scant as it may be, suggests that should Japan attack the USSR, western Allied a/c should be allowed to base there. It probably also follows that US logistical support or garrison ground units would also be allowed to base there. Base forces, engineers and so forth.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

TYPICAL "Japanese Fan-Boy" response.

Typical allied cheerleader response.

Stalin permitted a few "Ferry Raids" over Germany to use Russian Bases in
the West..., and if it meant getting more American Aid you can bet he'd have made
some kind of arraingement in the Far East as well. B-17's require too much logistical
support to be practical, but Tactical Airpower (B-25's, B-26's, P-38's and the like)
could be supportted and would make the Japanese miserable in the Sea of Japan area

Stalin might have allowed it because he wanted to disassemble and copy the planes. American would not have based the planes there because there was no need. They could base out of China without risking their tech secrets (Norton bombsite anyone?). Since "shuttle" flights are not moddled in WitP that point in moot. American planes should not be allied in Soviet controlled zones even after then are at wor with Japan.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Damien

Stalin might have allowed it because he wanted to disassemble and copy the planes. American would not have based the planes there because there was no need. They could base out of China without risking their tech secrets (Norton bombsite anyone?). Since "shuttle" flights are not moddled in WitP that point in moot. American planes should not be allied in Soviet controlled zones even after then are at wor with Japan.

DAMIEN. You don't need or use a Norden Bombsight in a Tactical Bomber..., and the
US was already supplying the Soviets with B-25's and A-20's through Lend-Lease any-
way..., so why would the Soviets need to steal anything? Tactical Air Power such as
I suggested was flying out of China---but was not in range to attack the Japanese
around the Home Islands. There is absolutely NO reason it couldn't and wouldn't have
been based in Siberia as well if the need/opportunity arose. From there it could threaten
Manchurian Industry and all the shipping carrying the produce of the Northern Resource
Area back to Japan. The only limit would be logistical or political. And I'm sure the two
in concert would probably limit a US presence to a few hundred A/C. But a few hundred
A/C in the right place can do a he11 of a lot of damage.

[mdiehl]

Stalin might have allowed it because he wanted to disassemble and copy the planes. American would not have based the planes there because there was no need. They could base out of China without risking their tech secrets (Norton bombsite anyone?). Since "shuttle" flights are not moddled in WitP that point in moot. American planes should not be allied in Soviet controlled zones even after then are at wor with Japan

The US would base out of Soviet bases because the supply situation, horrid as it might be, would still be better than the supply situation anywhere in China. The USSR may have had lots of tolerance for corruption and wastage, but much less so in wartime.

[mogami]

Hi, I recall reading an account of an American bomber pilot whose aircraft was reloaded by the Soviets. Not an exact quote (it was some time ago)
"A truck driven by a boy of no more then thirteen pulled up. The lad then put the truck into reverse and backed up at high speed before slamming on the brakes. To my horror 500lb bombs began flying off the back of the truck and onto the ground where a team of shabby looking Russians hoisted them onto a cart and began moving toward the bomber"........ The truck sped off to get more bombs.

[Mr.Frag]

The US would base out of Soviet bases because the supply situation, horrid as it might be, would still be better than the supply situation anywhere in China. The USSR may have had lots of tolerance for corruption and wastage, but much less so in wartime.

Agreed.

Folks, you can't just say that the USSR would not have allowed the use of western aircraft.

Should Japan start the war with Russia in 1941, Russia would be suddenly in a situation where they would be more then happy to accept USA assistance suddenly for the war against Japan. It doesn't really matter if it was a B-17 with the bomb site removed and russian aircrews flying it. I posted the B-17 range ring. Just so you know, both the B-25 and B-26 and many other medium aircraft can reach targets too, just not all of them.

I was just clearly illustrating why Japan does not want to mess with Russia. [;)]

[Nikademus]

Hi Damien,

realistically, i dont see much possibility of the game being modified to attempt to represent the political maneuverings that made basing Allied air forces in Russia less than straightforward, but the Allied player will face the same logistical challenges in basing large #'s of aircraft at Russian bases as with any other location. Heavy bombers in particular, use up alot of supply fast. Add to that, the Allied player will need find the bombers to utilize and said bombers will of course be unavail for use in other theaters as a result.

Dont see it as a game breaker, particularily as in most cases i doubt the Japan player will be messing with the Russians [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, If Russian airfields became able to support B-17's in a game and I was the Allied player I would fing the bombers and supply and a means of getting them there. I don't see bases on map better then Vlado for bombing Japan before the B-29 arrives.
The only problem is that field is exposed to Japanese naval bombardment TF's So I would first have to move submarines and place mines.

[Damien Thorn]

While I agree with everyone who says it would be really stupid for Japan to attack the USSR, I still think they wouldn't risk any aircraft with restricted tech in Russia. Mike, thanks for th info about the planes included in lend-lease; I was unaware of that. In that case, I suppose some planes would be based there but certainly not the B-17s.

Some people talk about supply being a problem. That brings up a qiestion: how do countries (besides the US) get supply? Do they all have to make it from on-map resources like Japan or do they have some other, magical source?

[Nikademus]

IIRC Damien, i dont think "technology" was as much the issue with Allied/Soviet interaction as much as it was the Soviets playing coy with allowing non_sov forces onto their soil.

Supply:

Other countries can produce supply if they have the appropriate Heavy industries and resources located at major cities. Example: Austrialia produces a nominal amount of supply by her lonesome. It's generally enough to keep her forces from going dry, but if for example, a bunch of US BG's make an appearance their appetites will only be satiated by generous helpings of logistics from the US west coast, which for all intents and purposes produces nearly unlimited supply.

Its the getting of that supply to the front lines and supporting rear area bases thats the challenge.

Certain chinese and Soviet cities also produce supply...but in most cases they would need alot of help to be able to support any kind of strategic bombing campaign. (china does get help via the "burma road" but this can be cut by Japan)

[mogami]

Hi, I'll invade the Soviets in one of my PBEM games. I won't do it on turn 1 however. (I need a few months to set it up. I can't do it while I am in the SRA as I need the airgroups ships and a few of the land combat units. )

This was one of my very early Japanese plans.

[sven6345789]

I still don't see the sense in attacking russia.
all the resources you need are in the SRA (including topless natives[:D]).
Why tackle another enemy? As Mogami points out, it will take away a lot of resources (and you are outproduced already).
furthermore, lets not forget about allied LBA blasting the japanese islands to the stoneage.
I definitely would not do it.

[mdiehl]

The oil's the thing. It's there (discovered, drilled and capped) in the SRA. For all practical purposes it's not there in Siberia (it's there but largely undisovered and there's no extant assets for extracting it). Either way you HAVE to invade the SRA.