Matrix,
I just played Protecting Our Own and noticed something I may have seen in the past.
All the units start in 'Advance' mode instead of defend despite it being a defensive battle. You can't set everyone to 'defend' in your turn since you rarely have the orders available. Turning the C+C off won't help because many/most units are 'out of contact.' This is especially true for Italian defenders.
So are my units losing the advantages of being in an entrenced position because they're set to 'advance?' I remember the manual saying something about 'defend' order improved defensive protection.
Scenario folks should make sure the defenders in a scenario actually start out defending.
Not a bug but a gripe-Commandos were popping out of the ground right in the same hex as my troops. I think that's a little much even with infiltration ability to pop up in the middle of a ring of men who are alerted and fighting. Just a thought for future scenario builders.
Scenario bug/issue with Mega Campaign
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
I also noted that. I got 2 pdr portees popping on the same hex as a couple of my tanks.
Maybe make the "computer" reinforcement hexes "floating," if the hex is occupied, move the entry point a hex or two away. I am aware each hex is 50x50, but it is basically point-blank.
Maybe make the "computer" reinforcement hexes "floating," if the hex is occupied, move the entry point a hex or two away. I am aware each hex is 50x50, but it is basically point-blank.
Sergeant, get me a clean shirt! I must lead my troops! -- Wounded Nicaraguan General, 1925
THAT is a pet bitch of mine!! Just a personal pref., but I believe ALL reinforcements should come from the sides ONLY, I tend to recon the area pretty good, and really pisses me off when stuff pops up, AND gets unopposed fire at my units, in hexes that contained NOTHING previously!!!! Gents, Ladies, PLEASE stop this BS!!! This IMO does not make a good scenario, but has the opposite effect, I have stopped scenario's mid game for these reasons, and won't play them again, until I go in and make the reinforcements appear from the edge. Sorry, just my honest opinion, nothing personal meant here at all <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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Paul Vebber
- Posts: 5342
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Portsmouth RI
- Contact:
Entrenched status trumps other status - so if it says you are entrenched, it doesn't matter if you are in advance of defend stance. Defend stance gives you a higher chance of special opfire, and the chance to "find cover" if you dont move.
As to reinforcement hexes, well, scenario designers have a choice as to where they place them. In CL we hope to have a different system.
As to reinforcement hexes, well, scenario designers have a choice as to where they place them. In CL we hope to have a different system.
As coordinator for the MCNA I feel I should respond here.
Mike Amos has a point. I don't, however, totally agree. If you put all reinforcements on each side, a number of problems emerge.
1. Will they have enough time to make it to the battle to be effective?
2. What about infiltrators? How can they be infiltrators if you see them coming a long way off?
3. History seems to indicate that special forces units were famous for appearing "out of nowhere." That would include the SAS, LRDG and the Brandenbergers.
Now on the side of Mike and also GDPSnake, to have vehicles suddenly appear in the same hex is disconcerting.
However, are these reinforcements set to do that or is this the "fog of war" in the game keeping them hidden until you stumble upon them?
I've seen this happen any number of times in scenarios for SPWAW.
So it just may not be reinforcements appearing on top of you. Those units may have already been there and you stumbled upon them.
I would have to know which enemy units in order to correctly analyze this.
Finally, as a general rule, I would agree that this feature is overdone sometimes. I have been guilty of doing just that.
I only did it, however, in instances where units did actually appear suddenly seemingly out of nowhere..but perhaps overdone.
And then some of you crafty players move much quicker than anticipated and get to the reinforcement hex quicker than I anticipated. That one would be my fault and I'll try to do better.
I hope this satisfies your query and your demand for answers, SDPSnake. If not, I am sorry.
And as for designer choices in CL, I truly hope that the versatility we have found in SPWAW for unique and challenging scenarios will not be taken away from us.
If someone misuses a feature, that is one thing. To remove a tool from a game because it is misused is a mistake in my judgment.
Wild Bill
[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]</p>
Mike Amos has a point. I don't, however, totally agree. If you put all reinforcements on each side, a number of problems emerge.
1. Will they have enough time to make it to the battle to be effective?
2. What about infiltrators? How can they be infiltrators if you see them coming a long way off?
3. History seems to indicate that special forces units were famous for appearing "out of nowhere." That would include the SAS, LRDG and the Brandenbergers.
Now on the side of Mike and also GDPSnake, to have vehicles suddenly appear in the same hex is disconcerting.
However, are these reinforcements set to do that or is this the "fog of war" in the game keeping them hidden until you stumble upon them?
I've seen this happen any number of times in scenarios for SPWAW.
So it just may not be reinforcements appearing on top of you. Those units may have already been there and you stumbled upon them.
I would have to know which enemy units in order to correctly analyze this.
Finally, as a general rule, I would agree that this feature is overdone sometimes. I have been guilty of doing just that.
I only did it, however, in instances where units did actually appear suddenly seemingly out of nowhere..but perhaps overdone.
And then some of you crafty players move much quicker than anticipated and get to the reinforcement hex quicker than I anticipated. That one would be my fault and I'll try to do better.
I hope this satisfies your query and your demand for answers, SDPSnake. If not, I am sorry.
And as for designer choices in CL, I truly hope that the versatility we have found in SPWAW for unique and challenging scenarios will not be taken away from us.
If someone misuses a feature, that is one thing. To remove a tool from a game because it is misused is a mistake in my judgment.
Wild Bill
[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]</p>
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
Wild Bill,
First let me say thanks for responding and for all your hard work. I love your MCNA.
I can agree and probably live with some infiltration designs with special forces infantry popping up.
However, I just played a scenario (I think it was one of yours) where I was supposed to rescue German POWs from a train. I secured the town, POW and surrounding area and stationed men and tanks in defensive positions to maintain security while the transports rolled in to recover the POW's.
Talk about absurd! Matilda II's, Armored cars, whole infantry companies were 'popping up' right inside my secured area. The showed up in the same hex in some cases!
This is the issue I would like to point out to designers. Tanks don't grow out of the ground in a hex with sentried units. If one is concerned about reinforcements like armor arriving in time, then bring them in earlier to cover the distance. As to being seen? Matilda II's make a lot of noise and can be seen a long way off. And I doubt an entire British infantry company could sneak in.
I certainly don't want to crush creativity but this issue needs more judicious scrutiny.
First let me say thanks for responding and for all your hard work. I love your MCNA.
I can agree and probably live with some infiltration designs with special forces infantry popping up.
However, I just played a scenario (I think it was one of yours) where I was supposed to rescue German POWs from a train. I secured the town, POW and surrounding area and stationed men and tanks in defensive positions to maintain security while the transports rolled in to recover the POW's.
Talk about absurd! Matilda II's, Armored cars, whole infantry companies were 'popping up' right inside my secured area. The showed up in the same hex in some cases!
This is the issue I would like to point out to designers. Tanks don't grow out of the ground in a hex with sentried units. If one is concerned about reinforcements like armor arriving in time, then bring them in earlier to cover the distance. As to being seen? Matilda II's make a lot of noise and can be seen a long way off. And I doubt an entire British infantry company could sneak in.
I certainly don't want to crush creativity but this issue needs more judicious scrutiny.
I've looked at that scenario and the reinforcements are not set to appear in the middle of your units.
This is the "fog of war" element in the game that is not allowing you to see them till they fire or you stumble upon them.
I will send you the scenario itself so you can look with the SPWAW editor and see for yourself the setup.
The four reinforcement hexes are located in 40,24 and 38,26, to the north (or right) of the action. Neither the prisoners nor the victory hexes are in that area.
The other two reinforcement hexes are at the top of the map on a road. Units however, don't enter their until around turn 7. They are in hexes 16,1 and 11,1.
Now why are these last two placed there? For two reasons:
1. It is a road. The British have to enter from somewhere. The alarm has sounded and reinforcement are coming to the area.
2. If the German player does not move quickly and exit the prisoners to the north, he will get caught with his pants down as the British approach.
3. There is a key to success with this one. You must exit to the left-lower corner. This is a longer route but much less dangerous.
It is the choice a commander makes not knowing what is ahead. Do I proceed north and exit or do I turn back and go south? Going south is further, but the enemy might come in from the north to counterattack me.
Thus your choice, good or bad, will determine what happens.
But as to reinforcement hexes being in the middle of the British, that is just not true.
I'll send you the scenario, gdpSnake. Take a look.
And I thank you for your kind words. I know your criticism is meant to be helpful and it is.
But it should be aimed at the "fog of war" in the game itself, not the scenario design.
And it is 3:00 AM in the scenario...a night battle. That makes a big difference as far as bisilibity is concerned.
Nuff said. The problem is with FOW, not with the scenario. Thanks...Wild Bill
This is the "fog of war" element in the game that is not allowing you to see them till they fire or you stumble upon them.
I will send you the scenario itself so you can look with the SPWAW editor and see for yourself the setup.
The four reinforcement hexes are located in 40,24 and 38,26, to the north (or right) of the action. Neither the prisoners nor the victory hexes are in that area.
The other two reinforcement hexes are at the top of the map on a road. Units however, don't enter their until around turn 7. They are in hexes 16,1 and 11,1.
Now why are these last two placed there? For two reasons:
1. It is a road. The British have to enter from somewhere. The alarm has sounded and reinforcement are coming to the area.
2. If the German player does not move quickly and exit the prisoners to the north, he will get caught with his pants down as the British approach.
3. There is a key to success with this one. You must exit to the left-lower corner. This is a longer route but much less dangerous.
It is the choice a commander makes not knowing what is ahead. Do I proceed north and exit or do I turn back and go south? Going south is further, but the enemy might come in from the north to counterattack me.
Thus your choice, good or bad, will determine what happens.
But as to reinforcement hexes being in the middle of the British, that is just not true.
I'll send you the scenario, gdpSnake. Take a look.
And I thank you for your kind words. I know your criticism is meant to be helpful and it is.
But it should be aimed at the "fog of war" in the game itself, not the scenario design.
And it is 3:00 AM in the scenario...a night battle. That makes a big difference as far as bisilibity is concerned.
Nuff said. The problem is with FOW, not with the scenario. Thanks...Wild Bill
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant
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Christian Blex
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Muenster, Germany
Played this scenario,too. And I got quite the same feelings snake did. One British reinforcement hex for example was at the south-west corner of the town, far away from the edge of the map. Lukily, I had stationed 2 PzIII just in the neigbouring hexes and some other tanks nearby, so when I discovered this reinforcement hex, I was able to destroy most of the vehicles just when they were materialized out of nowhere(I had the hex almost surounded, so fog of war seems quite dubious to me) In general however I don't like units materializing in the middle of the map not to mention in the same hexes of my units and getting the first shot.
There was another MCNA scenario for example. MY units were stationed near the right edge of the maps, I had to bring them home, thus to go to the left end and exiting there. I left the PzIV's on the right hill to guard my rear. Indeed, British forces did appear, but not at the edge of the map, but right in front of one of my Panzerkampfwagen. Six British units! Fog of war? Well, I have my problems with. As the right edge of the map was only around 10 Hexes away, there was really no need for letting the tanks pop up in front of my units. Sorry, but I thought I was fighting in WW2 and not in an Star-Trek scenario.
There was another MCNA scenario for example. MY units were stationed near the right edge of the maps, I had to bring them home, thus to go to the left end and exiting there. I left the PzIV's on the right hill to guard my rear. Indeed, British forces did appear, but not at the edge of the map, but right in front of one of my Panzerkampfwagen. Six British units! Fog of war? Well, I have my problems with. As the right edge of the map was only around 10 Hexes away, there was really no need for letting the tanks pop up in front of my units. Sorry, but I thought I was fighting in WW2 and not in an Star-Trek scenario.
"Kotzen und kleckern!!!"
Bill,
Thanks. I haven't seen the scenario in my mailbox though. I guess the problem is that I 'secured the town' by stationing units at the key points on the outskirts. That happens to be on top/next to the reinforcement hexes.
The concept of 'securing the town' (I consider this to be a key tactical element) becomes pointless when the design puts reinforcement hexes inside the map borders.
A designer can't allow for every possible move by a human opponent but one might consider moving the hexes closer to the map edge and bringing them in earlier. It might be more realistic since my troops would perform a rear guard withdraw against sufficient strenth. That also seems to jive with historical accounts of battles.
A different issue:
I just encountered the "Yugoslavia bug" playing the Valetta harbor scenario. I turned the game off and on again and the Yugo's became the Poles.
THe game was working perfectly (except for the renown movement bug) and the only thing I changed was to turn the mines off. I moved a barge onto a sea hex with mines just out of curiosity about the 'Mine button'. I moved a few other units and then decided to move the barge back to it's original location before turning mines back on. That's when the game locked up and end of story.
Could the 'mine on/off' button be the key to this bug? Maybe the code thinks the "unit(barge in this case) can move and tries but the code also says can't move because it should be destroyed/immobilized from mines (i.e. a mine result was obtained on the unit but didn't register because mines were turned off.)
Might be worth testing this idea or asking others with the problem if they 'diddled' the mine button (or maybe other button changes in the middle of a game)
Just an idea.
Thanks. I haven't seen the scenario in my mailbox though. I guess the problem is that I 'secured the town' by stationing units at the key points on the outskirts. That happens to be on top/next to the reinforcement hexes.
The concept of 'securing the town' (I consider this to be a key tactical element) becomes pointless when the design puts reinforcement hexes inside the map borders.
A designer can't allow for every possible move by a human opponent but one might consider moving the hexes closer to the map edge and bringing them in earlier. It might be more realistic since my troops would perform a rear guard withdraw against sufficient strenth. That also seems to jive with historical accounts of battles.
A different issue:
I just encountered the "Yugoslavia bug" playing the Valetta harbor scenario. I turned the game off and on again and the Yugo's became the Poles.
THe game was working perfectly (except for the renown movement bug) and the only thing I changed was to turn the mines off. I moved a barge onto a sea hex with mines just out of curiosity about the 'Mine button'. I moved a few other units and then decided to move the barge back to it's original location before turning mines back on. That's when the game locked up and end of story.
Could the 'mine on/off' button be the key to this bug? Maybe the code thinks the "unit(barge in this case) can move and tries but the code also says can't move because it should be destroyed/immobilized from mines (i.e. a mine result was obtained on the unit but didn't register because mines were turned off.)
Might be worth testing this idea or asking others with the problem if they 'diddled' the mine button (or maybe other button changes in the middle of a game)
Just an idea.