Best Use of IJN DDs

[Burkowski]

This is a request for general advice, but for Scens 17 & 19, especially... what do y'all see as the optimum use of IJN DDs? The question relates specifically to ASW ops...

My experience in UV so far tells me that proper use of IJN DDs is crucial to success... IJN is chronically short of everything, and DDs are in demand as pickets in Air TFs, as part of SC and Bombardment TFs, and, especially for FT TFs especially early in the game...

Question: do you habitually form DDs in dedicated SC/ASW TFs when you have good intel or strong suspicion of enemy SS in an area or do you rest your hopes on DDs as part of other task forces to get the ASW job done? One example doesn't prove the case but here's one:

Early in Scen 17: USN brought Lex/Yorktown TF 3 hexes SW of GG for raids... Zuikaku/Shokaku/Shoho TF blooded them and pursued to SE of GG with strong CAP... meanwhile, Naval Search spotted and held USN SS lurking in the gap east of GG... formed dedicated ASW TF with Ushio and Uzuki and sent to patrol the choke point for the 2-3 turns it took Z/S/S to finish business and want to return through the gap ... no results from Ushio/Uzuki TF, but as Z/S/S passed through the gap, Mochizuki (part of the same Air TF) found and killed S-38...

I have had several similar cases and wonder if the sentiment is generally in favor of Dedicated ASW DD TFs or in favor of using the DDs elsewise and letting the escorts do the job?

In prepping for WitP, I think I have a pretty good handle on most of the big stuff in UV, but thought I would raise this question since the impact of best use of DDs in WitP will be magnified there as far as I can tell...


Thanks,

Burkowski

[DoomedMantis]

Whenever I get a choke point and I have spare DD's I send them sub hunting. The thing to remember though is that aircraft are the key. They spot and sometimes attack subs, and make it easier for the ASW TF to track down and sink said subs. your DD's will not always be needed in those SC and bombardment TF's as these dont run all the time.

[LordHawke]

ORIGINAL: Burkowski
Question: do you habitually form DDs in dedicated SC/ASW TFs when you have good intel or strong suspicion of enemy SS in an area or do you rest your hopes on DDs as part of other task forces to get the ASW job done? One example doesn't prove the case but here's one:

Hi Burkowski,

Agree with you that IJN DDs are a limited commodity. Usually I can only spare Mutsuki class or Kamikaze class DDs for ASW work. The can also double up for FT purposes. The rest are pretty much shanghaied for escort duty.

The key to remember is this: while you're more likely to end up engaging the sub as an escort (as the sub will be willing to risk attacking the asset you're escorting), there's a chance the sub will get through. A sub is a small price to pay for a CV, or perhaps even a transport chock full of troops. [;)] ASW missions tend to be chancy affairs, but they're low risk too.

I'd probably say use what DDs you can spare. But if your opponent is a devotee of the Silent Service (apparently Nimitz was), then you better shift some more resources in that direction. I think Mogami or cap_and_gown had a good idea of using a couple of CS and some DDs to act as ASW carrier TFs somewhere in the forum.

[madflava13]

I think Mogami or cap_and_gown had a good idea of using a couple of CS and some DDs to act as ASW carrier TFs somewhere in the forum.

I had that idea! I get no respect... No respect I tell ya! [;)]

[CMDRMCTOAST]

ORIGINAL: madflava13

I think Mogami or cap_and_gown had a good idea of using a couple of CS and some DDs to act as ASW carrier TFs somewhere in the forum.

I had that idea! I get no respect... No respect I tell ya! [;)]

Is that enough respect for YA.....[:D]

[LordHawke]

ORIGINAL: madflava13

I think Mogami or cap_and_gown had a good idea of using a couple of CS and some DDs to act as ASW carrier TFs somewhere in the forum.

I had that idea! I get no respect... No respect I tell ya! [;)]

Hey madflava13,

I'm sorry if I didn't credit you, but I really got that from Apollo11's FAQ. Did he pick that up from you? [&:]

[Burkowski]

Thanks, LordHawke...

Yes, I read Apollo 11's FAQ and have tried to incorporate that idea especially after taking Lunga/Tulagi early and using AV or CS as ASW and limited Naval Search cover while developing those bases...

You differentiated among destroyer classes.. I am only now at the point (nug!) where I am paying serious attention to the equipment differences on light forces... can you elaborate on why Mutsuki and Kamikaze and not others?

Guess my question was really a question about placing general emphasis for DDs. There is so much I want to do early as IJN, but, in a sense, I think that's a trap or maybe a no-win situation--- I want to do a lot of things and sometimes wind up doing few of them well... hence my question about best use of DD resources--- I really want those Long Lances ready for surface action, yet I really want to kill subs to protect my heavies... isn't war grand [8|]?


Burkowski

[LordHawke]

ORIGINAL: Burkowski

<snip>
You differentiated among destroyer classes.. I am only now at the point (nug!) where I am paying serious attention to the equipment differences on light forces... can you elaborate on why Mutsuki and Kamikaze and not others?

Guess my question was really a question about placing general emphasis for DDs. There is so much I want to do early as IJN, but, in a sense, I think that's a trap or maybe a no-win situation--- I want to do a lot of things and sometimes wind up doing few of them well... hence my question about best use of DD resources--- I really want those Long Lances ready for surface action, yet I really want to kill subs to protect my heavies... isn't war grand [8|]?

Burkowski

Mutsukis are well-nigh overglorified PGs and Kamikazes pack less surface combat power, but have DP guns (for AA work). Something like that.

Since TFs over 15 ships suffer from diminishing returns, I want those slots packed with the best DDs I've got. All Air Combat TFs get a Yugumo at least (radar), plus available Akatsukis, Hatsuharus and Shiratsuyus (most AA). Surface combatants get Fubukis and Asashios. Kageros fill in the blanks. These (and the Mutsuki and Kamikaze classes) are the workhorses. The Akitsukis (not to be confused with Akatsukis) are the best AA DDs, but they only come pretty late in the war.

Of course, if you're in a bloodbath, all these considerations may go out of the window and you can end up with bits and pieces of your wonderfully thought-out DD squadrons! [:'(]

Then again, if you're with the "drink-more-beer-make-better-moves" doctrine guys, just throw in DDs any which way. It probably doesn't matter.

[madflava13]

Lordhawke-
I doubt I actually "invented" that idea... Lots of guys around here use it. I had just recently mentioned the tactic in this forum though, so I assumed that's what you were referring to...

[:D][:D]

[marky]

too bad u cant design and build ur own ships in theater huh ? [:D]

[AmiralLaurent]

IJN DD have widely different characteristics and so I give them different roles with four criteria:

_ type of torpedoes: Type 93 is good for surface action, Type 92 is less good
_ AA rating
_ type of depth charge : Type 2 is far better than Type 95 that is far better than Type 91
_ radar or not

So the different classes, with their best use:
Mutsuki: torps 93, DC 91, good AA. In surface TF for night action
Fubuki: torps 93, DC 91, good AA. In surface TF for night action
Akatsuki: torps 93, DC 95, good AA. Either as escort or ASW chasers
Hatsuharu: torps 93, DC 95, very good AA (for IJN). Escort
Shiratsayu: torps 93, DC 95, very good AA (for IJN). Escort
Asashio: torps 93, DC 95, good AA. Either as escort or ASW chasers
Kagero: torps 93, DC 95 (but only two of them), bad AA. In surface TF for night action or ASW chasers
Yugumo: torps 93, DC 95, bad AA, radar. One or two in each TF, more for surface night action.
Shimakaze: torps 93 (15 of them !!), DC type 2, bad AA. No escort, as they arrive in 1943 and will be attacked mainly by planes. In surface TF for night action or ASW chasers,
especially the latter
Akitsuki: torps 93 (only 4), DC Type 2, good AA. Escort ships. Not in surface TF as they have no 5in guns and very good DC, so will be wasted in surface actions.
Kamikaze: torps 92, DC 91, medium AA. I sent them back as soon as possible
Minekaze: torps 92, DC 91, medium AA. I sent them back as soon as possible

Listed is the best possible use. I have far better results now that I try to follow these rules.

As for chasing subs with IJN DD, it works well, if you send TF of 15-25 ships. I send if possible a transport ship with 1 or 2 empty 1000-ton AP with the escort so the submarine may try to attack it and be seen by the escort.

[pasternakski]

Thank you for compiling this, AL. It is very useful. I have been doing something similar, but have been so busy playing that I have not brought it to this level of sophistication.

As for your chasing submarines suggestion, however, it may work against the AI, but not against a human who manages his own submarine warfare. Further, the Japanese just don't have the ships to devote to this level of effort (even supported by aircraft squadrons assigned to ASW. For my money, every Japanese air unit devoted to ASW is one less batch of aircraft that can interfere with my primary operations).

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Thank you for compiling this, AL. It is very useful. I have been doing something similar, but have been so busy playing that I have not brought it to this level of sophistication.

You're welcome. The next step is then to be remember wich class it each of your 100+ DDs....

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

As for your chasing submarines suggestion, however, it may work against the AI, but not against a human who manages his own submarine warfare. Further, the Japanese just don't have the ships to devote to this level of effort (even supported by aircraft squadrons assigned to ASW. For my money, every Japanese air unit devoted to ASW is one less batch of aircraft that can interfere with my primary operations).

I play only PBEM games and use this tactic. And I disagree, IJN has far enough DD to use this tactic. DD repair SYS damage quickly and my be used more than bigger ships.

The worst I did was in February 1943, I had perhaps 50 IJN DD in 3 TF searching two subs near Truk and Rabaul. The trick is not to patrol the hex where the sub was seen, but to sail in the area and cover as much hexes as possible. I use tranport TF with the retire option, they sail one way during the night phase and return to port during the day. If the enmy sub is in one hex, it will usually try to attack at least once the TF and then DD have a chance to sink her.

This works between major operations and only around IJN bases. When you invaded something, I agree you can't have big ASW group. And there Allied subs are really a problem.

As for planes, the problem is that the worst pilots of any unit will be the first to fly ASW missions (like in training). So any ASW mission flown by the Japanese in 1943 will only use newcomers units with high exp pilots. If you try to fly them with an unit receiving replacements pilots, you will lose pilots and planes for nothing.

Actually it seems to me that flying naval search works better against subs than ASW !!! Maybe because all pilots, not only rookies, fly naval search.

[pasternakski]

You have 50 IJN DD to play around with for ASW patrols? In 1943? Sounds like your opponent isn't putting enough pressure on you.

Last time I played the Japanese in sc. 17, I was scraping the bottom of the barrel for surface and bombardment TF escorts, fast transport ships, and ASW/AA escorts for my CVs. The PCs, PGs, MSWs, and so on were often pressed into service due to lack of DDs.

[AmiralLaurent]

At this stage of the game, IJN held all Solomons and New Guinea and is well prepared. In this game I have lost 4 CV and 2 CVL in 1942 but only few surface warships while USN lost no CV but most of his surface warships. Last major battle was in September 1942. Then US has barely enough warships to escort CV and risk to enter the IJN LBA area while IJN was unable to invade anything because of lack of CV. SO I built my defence area and try to defend in 1943. The funny thing is that my opponent resigned for lack of time and I found 3 people wanting to replace it. I play against all three and they all wait at least for the end of January 1943 to land somewhere.

In the mean time, most of my surface fleet was waiting in Rabaul. So in one game I sent almost all my DDs in a sub hunt for some days. It works, I sink S-45 SE of Rabaul and put two DC into the Tautog off Truk. Don't know if she sinks. I have managed to save submarines in such cases.

Right now my 3 opponents have all landed in Solomons or New Guinea and now I agree that I have less DD available. But I have still tens of them.

Playing IJN in 1943 is really another game...

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Actually it seems to me that flying naval search works better against subs than ASW !!! Maybe because all pilots, not only rookies, fly naval search.

That would be one of the factors making it more effective; one of the others is the increased range of the search area. Planes on naval search will attack submarines, just not as often as ASW missions will. This would be counterbalanced by the fact that ASW missions use 1/2 extended range to determine the search area.

So, all in all, by doing naval search you are gaining; a greater coverage area, getting to use your most effective pilots more often and still working on spotting surface units, while only "losing" some unknown amount of predilection for the ASW mission to prosecute the sub contacts...I think that I will skip the ASW mission for a while in some current games and see if I detect the difference.

[Burkowski]

AmiralLaurent.

I have been away from the forum for a few days.... thanks for the great, detailed package on IJN DDs... that kind of info will help me greatly in sorting out the DDs and their assignments... guess I have the same problem as Pasternakski.. what little time I find, I wind up playing-- but I am glad that you were able to research it out this way for us! [&o]

Burkowski

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

So the different classes, with their best use:

Interesting, Laurent, especially so since we play against each other. [8D] I have very elaborate "cookbook" on using IJN DDs and here's how I use them (some significant differences between your list and mine):

Minekaze: torps 92, DC 91, medium AA. Old and with short radius of action (3000) => transport conwoy escorts. (I hate IJN PCs and PGs, and try to use Minekazes as AP escorts when possible, filling the gaps with PC/PGs) I never return any IJN DD because - no matter how old and obsolete some classes may be - they are still way better than PCs.

Kamikaze: torps 92, DC 91, solid AA. Fine AP escorts, CV TF escorts in emergency.

Mutsuki: torps 93, DC 91, good AA. Old and fragile but first class armed with Long Lances => surface TF. They die easily, but are cheap, and capable of dealing destruction as well (Long Lances).

Fubuki: torps 93, DC 91, good AA. Surface TF

Akatsuki: torps 93, DC 95, good AA. Surface TF

Hatsuharu: torps 93, DC 95, very good AA (for IJN). CV TF escort

Shiratsayu: torps 93, DC 95, very good AA (for IJN). CV TF escort

Asashio: torps 93, DC 95, good AA. Surface TF

Kagero: torps 93, DC 95, bad AA. Surface TF. Lots of Kageros in UV so they form a backbone of my surface TFs.

Yugumo: torps 93, DC 95, bad AA, radar. Radar equipped. So first 1-2 in CV force, then what's left goes into surface TFs, 1 per TF.

Shimakaze: torps 93 (15 of them !!), DC type 2, bad AA. Single one off IJN super DD => surface TF.

Akitsuki: torps 93 (only 4), DC Type 2, good AA. Solid AA very durable, 3,9in gun => CV escorts. They were built for the role of CV escorts so this is historical, though I'd wish they have more LL TTs and then I'd happily use them in non historical role in surface TFs because I love their sturdiness [8D] When Akitsukis start to arrive and take place in CV TFs I slowly relegate Hatsuharus and Shiratsuyus from CV TF escort role to surface TFs.

As for chasing subs with IJN DD, it works well, if you send TF of 15-25 ships. I send if possible a transport ship with 1 or 2 empty 1000-ton AP with the escort so the submarine may try to attack it and be seen by the escort.

I never "chase" subs with IJN DDs. Nor do I care for their ASW rating when casting roles for them. I do care about US DDs ASW rating though...

Oleg

[AmiralLaurent]

Hi, Oleg

interesting list.

As a remark, I also send back most of the PC and PG. And a PC with a Type 95 DC is better than a DD with Type 91. Of course AA is strongly inferior but is not excepted to be used in rear area.

Sorry to disappear for some days just at the start of a major invasion. Nice para drop on Basilaki. You finally put a feet again in New Guinea... or just close to it.

Laurent

[Grunt]

I'm reading Samuel Elliot Morrison's History of U.S. Naval Operations in WWII. In his discussion of the Japanese Navy he says the Japanese PC's were similar to, and used the same way as, US APD's. Have you tried them in UV in that role?