An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!!

[TIMJOT]

A good jap player will bomb you, but most of your troops would get ashore (singapore might be easier, but is a few hexes closer to the enemy that are probably based in brunei by the time your transports arrive). Of course, you will loose many transports doing this - and loose even more transports when the IJN arrives and catched you unlaoding, but by then you can have some extra troops on malaya.

No doubt that they way it is in the game. As I said due to the over effectiveness of LBA against shipping, be it level bombing or the seemingly endless supply of torpedos for those Betty/Nells.

If thats the way it is thats the way the game will have to be played I guess, but like I said it does not represent the historic situation.

Thanks for the insite

[Mr.Frag]

Tim, you are dealing with historical use of troops. We are free to use whatever we want. Don't get hung up on the issue.

[Raverdave]

TIMJOT,

Mate I respect your views, h3ll, you are one of the few people that I always take note of, but I have to say that to my knowledge, none of the testers have ever really tried to save Singapore. I certainly know that from my perspective I also ways try to save as many troops as I can to be used in other places, saving Singapore is just not high on my list of things to do. So Singapore might well be able to be held until the 15th of Feb if a player wishes to try, and I might add that you will very soon have the chance to try this out[:D]

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Tim, you are dealing with historical use of troops. We are free to use whatever we want. Don't get hung up on the issue.

Dont mean to get hung up on it. I have no problem with say... Mogami getting better results by using extra force (4 divisions). Its just this notion that Singapore is doomed no matter what, even if its less force applied at a later date. And as far as I can tell Singapore has never lasted to even its historic date in every AAR I have seen. I just want to understand why it should be so difficult to reinforce Singapore when historically it was done right up to its fall. In fact it should be fairly difficult to prevent supplies from getting thru, hence the need to take the base quickly as possible. Why do you think the 25th Army was by far the largest of all the Southern area armies? In fact almost as big as the 3 other armies put together

[Luskan]

It raises the opposite question however.
If the jap player only invaded with what they did historically - would singapore even fall? To be honest, I don't think so - but then that would be less ahistoric?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

TIMJOT,

Mate I respect your views, h3ll, you are one of the few people that I always take note of, but I have to say that to my knowledge, none of the testers have ever really tried to save Singapore. I certainly know that from my perspective I also ways try to save as many troops as I can to be used in other places, saving Singapore is just not high on my list of things to do. So Singapore might well be able to be held until the 15th of Feb if a player wishes to try, and I might add that you will very soon have the chance to try this out[:D]

Fair enough Raver. I would be very interested to see a test of someone trying hold Singapore just for kicks. Have the IJN player use historic force at historic landing sites ( No early Kuantan or Mersing short cuts ) just to see what happens. Hell maybe Singapore will fall on Feb 15th and all will be right in the world again[;)]

Thanks again for your reply

[Mr.Frag]

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Great... look forward to it. Thanks

[Raverdave]

Hey Banana boy....looks like we are going to break our old UV AAR record of 11,000 views[:'(]

[mogami]

Hi, When I have the allies I never pull a single troop out of Malaya. I try to move more in.
I want to hold Singapore as long a I can. (Its a nice place for bombers)

Every day the Japanese are fighting for the SRA is a day they can't be causing trouble else where.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Hi, OK I'll do a turn 1. I'm going to make it a standing start. No landings at all on Dec 7. All transports will begin loading on Dec 8th. Only historical landings will be made for first 2 weeks.

Or if you want I'll be Allies. ANd you can do what you want but I never run from SRA.

[Brady]

Man I cant wait to get the game and start a PBEM game or two, all these AAR are like foreplay, and I am realy neading a release now[:)]

[bradfordkay]

I guess that you'll just havbe to settle for UV right now. The new girlfriend will be along in a few weeks... treat the old girl nicely for now, okay?

[Pascal_slith]

OK, here's the information I've compiled about bunker fuel availability for the US and Australian Navy in the Pacific around December-January 1942.

There are a number of sources that are quite explicit. Here are some easy ones to get:

Pacific War Revisited, Bischof and Dupont ed., article in book 'Fuel and US Naval Operations' by Daniel Blewett

Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings, these are the official hearings by various commissions, available online at www.ibiblio.org


Beans, Bullets and Black Oil by Adm. Worrall Carter

Oil Logistics in the Pacific by Patrick Donovan (PDF file available at www.dtic.mil ; check the 'Technical Reports Database' here, this is unclassified info. Lots of studies of WWII and other wars.)

US Naval Logisitcs in the Pacific War by David Ballantine

I am assuming you are using long tons for the fuel supply points, as this is what is usually quoted for the fuel capacity of ships.

I've rounded figures to nearest thousand.

Pearl Harbor - 4 million barrels at 7.45 barrels per long ton = 437'000 tons
Noumea - 0 tons
Brisbane - 12'000 tons
Sydney - 8'000 tons
Melbourne - 8'000 tons
Port Moresby - 0 tons

Other South Pacific ports (Tongatabu, Suva, Bora Bora, etc.) - 0 tons. The first of these bases was not operational until February at the earliest.

Available in the tankers of the US Fleet in the Pacific - approx. 760'000 barrels = 102'000 tons

location of oilers on Dec. 7th: 2 in Pearl, 3 at sea, 6 in West Coast ports, 2 at Cavite. Only 4 could refuel at sea.

Stock available along the West Coast in oil company storage - 44 million barrels = 5'908'000 tons



As you see, other than Pearl Harbor and of course along the West Coast, not much fuel was available elsewhere in the Pacific (sorry, I don't have the figure for Cavite).

Exact data for different times and all the bases in the Pacific is available in the 'Admiral Nimitz Command Summary: Running Estimate, 1941-1945'. These should be available on microfiche through inter-library loan at any good university library.

[stubby331]

Pascal,

You are a bloody legend.

Well Done.

Question is. Will these figures be adopted. (I'm assuming so, seeing as Joel already asked the question in the first place.)

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

I just asked Mog if he wants to take me on with the historic version ... see if he's interested. You will see a dramatic difference in the aar's posted with historic vs "we're smarter and we know better" versions of the game.

Hi, OK I'll do a turn 1. I'm going to make it a standing start. No landings at all on Dec 7. All transports will begin loading on Dec 8th. Only historical landings will be made for first 2 weeks.

Or if you want I'll be Allies. ANd you can do what you want but I never run from SRA.

Should be an interesting experiment to see how long Allies can cling on if they defend and dont try to evac. (which I admit was my normal Pacwar strategy)

From what ive read so far I suspect it wont be that far off of normal timetable but I could be wrong.....

I guess the decision to hold or evac will to some extent depend on what kind of airpower the Allies have in Singapore at start of game and in terms of game mechanics if overrun during its fall will the airgroups lost return as replacements in due course or will they be lost forever ?

Im assuming its Swordfish Buffalos and possibly a few Blenheims and other obselete types in low numbers.

[Mr.Frag]

I guess the decision to hold or evac will to some extent depend on what kind of airpower the Allies have in Singapore at start of game and in terms of game mechanics if overrun during its fall will the airgroups lost return as replacements in due course or will they be lost forever ?

There *was* lots of air power, but with the opening attack against Singapore's airfield, and bombardment against Khota, most of the power is gone. Against A6M's, the Allies are badly outclassed to say the least. Against no air cover, they are not too bad, but it is really about nit picking away at Japan. You do not have enough aircraft or air support to have mass power, you end up with little groups scattered at each base.

Assume the sky belongs to Japan until '43 or until you can deploy the USMC groups of F4F's in numbers (but they are pretty green when they show up).

The Brits get some Spit's and can bring pressure down from India, but by then it is far too late.

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When I have the allies I never pull a single troop out of Malaya. I try to move more in.
I want to hold Singapore as long a I can. (Its a nice place for bombers)

Every day the Japanese are fighting for the SRA is a day they can't be causing trouble else where.

Mogami, thats basically the possible alternative strategy that I was advocateing. Not saying it should be able to hold out indefinitely, Just that if the Japanese player doesnt excersises due dilegence the harder it should be. I suppose it only really makes sense if the historic reinforcement arrivals are represented.

Thanks for testing this

Regards

[Luskan]

Well, Raver seems to have bailed out of Darwin fairly quick. I sent in a little firepower and blew a fair bit of it off the map last night (killed 400 troops, took out 13 planes on the ground and I think got a few hits on the aks in port) in return the CD unit put a big hoel in one of my dds (I don't think she'll make it).

Guess the next bombardment will have to hit perth?

[Andy Mac]

Thanks for the response

Do any no evacuated airgroups in Singapore return if they are over run in the final fall of Singapore or are they permanently lost ?