An Aussie Beta Affair - Luskan V Raver!!!

[Andy Mac]

Hmmmm its a difficult one.

The only real way to regain control of Bay of Bengal is to put pressure on another region and force KB to move to counter.

I suspect that RN just doesnt have the strength ( the 4 R class BB's are slow and very very vulnerable to Air Attack from Dive Bombers).

One idea if Rangoon Airport is still in op is to move all Hurris and P40's of the AVG in and try and force an air battle close to Rangoon harbour.

Make it a big convoy and try and get it into air range of Rangoon then use LRCAP to protect the convoy P40's on LRCAP Hurris on CAP over Airfield you will lose a lot of ships but you may force KB to withdraw to re arm.

The danger is if IJN catches the convoy out of range of LBA then it will get wiped.

So no I dont think there are any easy answers

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Hmmmm its a difficult one.

The only real way to regain control of Bay of Bengal is to put pressure on another region and force KB to move to counter.

I suspect that RN just doesnt have the strength ( the 4 R class BB's are slow and very very vulnerable to Air Attack from Dive Bombers).

One idea if Rangoon Airport is still in op is to move all Hurris and P40's of the AVG in and try and force an air battle close to Rangoon harbour.

Make it a big convoy and try and get it into air range of Rangoon then use LRCAP to protect the convoy P40's on LRCAP Hurris on CAP over Airfield you will lose a lot of ships but you may force KB to withdraw to re arm.

The danger is if IJN catches the convoy out of range of LBA then it will get wiped.

So no I dont think there are any easy answers

Convoy as bait? That is just soooo wrong. Stop making the chalk screech on the chalk board!

[Raverdave]

Too bloody long.....not at least until late'42. I need control much sooner that that if I am to hold Burma.

[tondern]

Dear All:

Wow. What a souped-up PAC war machine! While not wanting to be a slave to historical accuracy, RaverDave's loss of Singapore four weeks early seems precipitous.

Why is it a problem that Singapore fell four weeks early?

The British defense plan was based on the Russian Port Arthur strategy of 1904-05. Dig in behind strong prepared defenses (Singapore itself) and slaughter excellent Japanese troops that were squandered in frontal attacks against massed artillery and machine guns. It probably would have worked well, as it did for the Russians. Only thing was that the water supply for Singapore was on the wrong side of the defenses. Someone on the general staff was not being very clever. On discovering this problem Percival surrendered to prevent hardship to the civilian population. He did not surrender out of military necessity, and was in a strong defensive position.

His retreat along the Malay penninsula was designed to slow the Japanese advance without wasting any of his forces. They were to be saved for the siege defense. Had he fought along the way the Japanese advance would have presumably been much slower.

So, with minimal resistance (until Singapore itself) it took the Japanese four more weeks to get down to Singapore. And the Brits (and Aussies and Indians) could have held out far longer except for the quaint notion of protecting civilians. This tells me that the real-world supply problems for the Japanese advance were probably prohibitive of a faster advance. And given any attempt at resistance the advace would have slowed and required more supply.

It therefore appears that the game makes the Japanese advance on Singapore far too easy.

Also, according to my Atlas collection the Saigon main airfields are about 1.5 hexs further from Singapore than on the game map. Timjot's excellent comments got me thinking. Would this explain the relative ease with which the British brought in many supply convoys despite their lack of air cover? (It appears that in the game a resupply convoy would be costly). Can this be easily fixed?

What say you?

Yours,

Tondern

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: stubby331

Also, What is the upgrade path for the Gladiators and Swordfish of the FAA?

I had an idea that you could send the Hermes back to blighty for a refit/upgrade and leave the airproups based somewhere handy.

I am sure that the Gladiators get replaced with Fairey Fulmars [8|], but I can't recall what replaces the Swordfish.

[Mr.Frag]

but I can't recall what replaces the Swordfish

Barracuda

[Raverdave]

tondern,

There has already been a lot of talk as to why Singers fell so quickly, one of the main reasons is that Luskan did not use Historical forces to the attack on the Malay peninsula, and I did not use historic reinforcements to bolster the defences. However you will note that the PI and also Rangoon are still doing well for early Feb.

Only thing was that the water supply for Singapore was on the wrong side of the defenses. Someone on the general staff was not being very clever. On discovering this problem Percival surrendered to prevent hardship to the civilian population. He did not surrender out of military necessity, and was in a strong defensive position.



Percival did not surrender out of military necessity? Bollocks! The Japanese had already breached the Islands defences and were having a field day. Percival was an idiot and had no idea what he was doing inregards to fighting a war.

Actually you can sneek in convoys with ease, and I have pulled many troops out of Singers in other PBEMs against Luskan without him having any idea (I made the decision that no Aussie soldier should be squandered in the defence of Singapore, but that was early on in our testing), and so it would be just as easy to get ships in. So long as you keep the convoys small (I even like to use single ships rather than a TF) the detection level is kept low.

I am not able to comment on the airfield at Saigon being 90 miles in the wrong place (So you are saying that Saigon itself is in the wrong place on the map?).

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

but I can't recall what replaces the Swordfish

Barracuda

Oh yes the Barracuda, another wonderful Fleet Air Arm aircraft[8|]

[jhdeerslayer]

Barracuda

[Pkunzipper]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

but I can't recall what replaces the Swordfish

Barracuda

Wasn't the Albacore??

[tondern]

Dear Raverdave,

Well, without "historical" force levels and if you decided to loss minimize at Singapore, then there is nothing wrong with the result. Except, if I were Mr. Banana, I might assume you would bring out all or some of the Australians, and therefore attack with less than historical force.

I also seem to remember something about the Japanese coming in over an improperly defended causeway. The causeway was improperly defended because it was supposed to be blown up. It was not blown up because it carried the water aqueduct.

Is there a technique to "slipping in" convoys, such as the old "return to home port" ruse in PacWar? In PacWar it was always much easier to get ships out than in (without the ruse, and if the direction of travel was away from enemy air). Single ships are fine, but you need a lot of them for supply.

My late 1940's map has center Singapore 675 land miles from center Saigon, and another late 1940's map indicates that the main airfield was about about 10 miles northwest of center Saigon. That would seem to put Singapore on the very edge of useful Zero range, i.e, if they got there and engaged they might not get home. I have trouble calculating the distance from the WitP screen shots - it's only about 570 miles in a straight line on the screen shot, but they probably cannot fly a straight line if they have to follow the hexes.

PI and Rangoon are doing well, but Rangoon is tricky until British air reinforcements begin to trickle in. After that, if you still have Rangoon, you will be in good shape on that side of the map. ( I assume the British Div that was sent to Singapore in Jan is available for defense on that side of the world.)

Well it looks like in a couple of months I may be able to run all sorts of diagnostics myself. I am grateful for the work of the testers such as yourself.

Yours,

Tondern

[brisd]

I've read on another thread that due to the large size of the map, distances between historical locations are not 100% accurate. So the error you see between Singapore and Saigon is probably one of the expected errors. As far as defending Burma and Rangoon, well, Japan took that city probably using less forces than you face and therefore I would suggest fall back to you supply lines and make his longer. You will not be able to regain control of Indian Ocean unless he has use of those forces elsewhere. Personally, I think Japan should have been more aggressive vs CW forces in the Indian theater and look forward to trying out some strategies in WITP.

[sven6345789]

If the japanese sends his carriers into the indian ocean, there is NOTHING in the british arsenal that comes in their path and lives to tell the tale. Only chance is using the US carriers to put pressure up on the other side (wake?, Suva?), forcing his carriers to react.

If he doesn't react, well, Karachi is a nice city in January. Give your naval crews some R n R.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Ok I am going to throw this question out to you guys and see what you come up with.

How can I stop, circumvent even, Luskan control of the Bay of Bengal ? Using US fleet carriers is out of the question as they are currently on the West coast of the US (and even if I did want to use them I would have to steam all the way across the Pacfic, then under Australia and into the Indian Ocean, and that would be a good month of steaming not allowing to bunkering.
The RN has HMS Hermes on hand but with nothing but Gladiators and Swordfish it would be a one sided contest. I have some MRBs but so far they have proved to be uneffective, and without fighter support they bulk at flying a naval attck mission. The fighters that I do have are next to useless, in the form of Hurricanes that simply don't have the legs to carry the battle out to sea, never mind the fact that they have been totally out classed in ari to air fights over land.

I need to regain my sea lanes to help support Rangoon and also supply Akyab which will be the next big battle in Burma after Rangoon.

I already have an idea as to what I intend to do, but thought it would be fun to see what else your guys come up with.

This is a "when the cat's away..." situation that is perfect for you to be "training" your US carrier pilots on live targets in the Central Pacific.

The other thing to do is to send some of your better British surface forces via the "southern route" to Western Australia where they can hit-n-run against the DEI. If the Japanese carriers try to follow, you lead them to empty fuel tanks south of Australia.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[Raverdave]

Nope it is not a "cats away" situation. Luskan is only using two CVLs in the Bay of Bengal..........his big fleet carriers are still loose in the Pacific, where I don't know as I lost track of them about a month ago and they have not been seen since. So I am keeping my CVs close to the west coast incase of trouble.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Nope it is not a "cats away" situation. Luskan is only using two CVLs in the Bay of Bengal..........his big fleet carriers are still loose in the Pacific, where I don't know as I lost track of them about a month ago and they have not been seen since. So I am keeping my CVs close to the west coast incase of trouble.

Oooh [X(] - only two CVLs are doing that to you? Wow!

(Drop back 5 yards and punt...)

Dave Baranyi

[Raverdave]

I have had a possitive sighting on two, and suspect that there is a third. It is a bit hard to tell some times as CVs sometimes get reported as CAs by the spotter aircraft.

[Luskan]

So the lesson to all the players out there is although the spotter aircraft are often unreliable, what you need to watch is how many aircraft can a suspected enemy CV TF launch.

Bombarded Chandpur again, and got another destroyer smacked. However at least I'm doing more damage than I'm getting. There are plenty of targets in Chandpur and my naval crews (especially on the BBs) are enjoying the gunnery practise. Bringing up more BBs soon.

Shoho just came off the production line in Japan. Since I have 3 active CV groups on the map, Shoho will become the flagship of my mobile reserve (another 2 cves and cvls aruond that I can use with her to beef things up a little - I did have to slow production of more than a few big ships to pump out a few more little flat tops).

Enjoy - I know Raver didn't.

The big thing that will prevent me from continueing the indian ocean siege is that although moulmein produced a little fuel IIRC, the only real fuel dump I have big enough for BBs is back at Singapore.



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/06/42

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Naval bombardment of Chandpur, at 30,25 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!


Allied aircraft


Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged

21 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Sawakaze
DD Kuroshio
DD Kari
DD Murakumo
DD Shirayuki, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Oyashio
DD Isonami
DD Hatsushima
DD Usugumo
DD Fubuki
BB Hyuga
CL Kitakami
BB Ise
BB Nagato

Allied Ships
CL Dauntless, Shell hits 2, heavy damage
DD Encounter, Shell hits 1, on fire
AK Oregonian, Shell hits 1, heavy damage
AK Indora, Shell hits 1
CA Cornwall, Shell hits 2, heavy damage


Allied ground losses:
193 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 14
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hanoi , at 36,37


Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 27


no losses

Runway hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x P-40E Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
3 x P-40E Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
3 x P-40E Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Clark Field

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3888 troops, 123 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 57775 troops, 658 guns, 216 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
285 casualties reported
Guns lost 9


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Ground combat at Manila

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 12741 troops, 198 guns, 6 vehicles

Defending force 76032 troops, 765 guns, 26 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Balikpapan

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 1583 troops, 36 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 2324 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
23 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
64 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Clark Field

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 43405 troops, 612 guns, 6 vehicles

Defending force 72142 troops, 401 guns, 312 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
56 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
Vehicles lost 1

[Capt. Harlock]

If the japanese sends his carriers into the indian ocean, there is NOTHING in the british arsenal that comes in their path and lives to tell the tale.

I can think of two possibilities: 1) underwater attacks, in other words submarines and mines. Naturally, it's a bit too late to lay mines. 2) Transfer a squadron of B-17's around and order them to attack the CVE's. They will probably get no hits, but they may down a number of fighters. (Even the zero was shot down more often than it could shoot down a B-17.) This will either force Luskan to retire, or leave him vulnerable to other LBA.

[Wallymanowar]

My advice would be to abandon the Bay of Bengal to the Japanese and consolidate and protect your Naval assets. Abandon Rangoon and form a defensive line behind the Irrawaddy. Defend your river line as long as possible and then retreat in the north to form a new line along the Chindwin. Defend Akyab for as long as possible - use overland supply as much as possible. Defence of the river lines and the slow travel on the jungle trails should prevent the Japanese from entering India. Holding Akyab should be possible since his supply lines will be stretched as well as yours and you can harass his attempts at naval supply with submarines and mines. In this case the historical course looks like it was the correct choice - in light of Luskan's early capture of Singapore, I am surprised you have held Burma for as long as you have. Only when the USN can force some pressure on the Japs can the British attempt to regain control of the surface and air in Burma.