2226 to 743 is a draw???

fat slob · Post by **fat slob** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 1:39 am

I just finished playing Gotanda's Advance as the Japs.
I completely annihilated the ANZAC forces and captured all the objectives.
I had numerous squads left that I didn't even need to use.
I must have had three entire platoons that didn't see any action.
And yet I was only given a draw???
I love this game and I'm grateful to everyone at Matrix, but what gives?

Lars · Post by **Lars** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 2:32 am

Hello and welcome!

Against the AI you need an advantage of at least 3 to 1 to get a minor vicyory. As I see it you would have needed 3 more points to get a win. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

/Lars

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 5:02 am

Originally posted by Lars:
Hello and welcome!

Against the AI you need an advantage of at least 3 to 1 to get a minor vicyory. As I see it you would have needed 3 more points to get a win. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

/Lars

This has got to be the closest game every, 3 points, 3 lousy points, next time don't have the CO report his dog as a casuality. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]</p>

fat slob · Post by **fat slob** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 7:12 am

Okay, guys.
I understand that 3 to 1 is a victory, anything less is a draw...but holy cow!
I completely destroyed the enemy!
If it was for real I'd have been promoted to General ranks! They'd be naming a tank after me!

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 7:50 am

1) Hose down the enemy. Gun down every last scrap iron driver, every cook, clerk and warm body you see out there. In SPW@W there is no other way. Also, get to and hold the VH's on or before the halfway point in the scenario, this will practically assure a Decisive Victory.

2) The scoring system might change in the not too distant future, if it is possible to do so. I know the problem is under study, so give the overworked crews a little slack. I have the feeling the scoring WILL change - believe me I yelled bloody murder over exactly this point.

Bing

Reg · Post by **Reg** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 10:07 am

Originally posted by fat slob:
Okay, guys.
I understand that 3 to 1 is a victory, anything less is a draw...but holy cow!
I completely destroyed the enemy!
If it was for real I'd have been promoted to General ranks! They'd be naming a tank after me!

Depends on your definition of victory and the aims of the enemy. If his intent was simply delay you regardless of the cost, then he may well be completely satisfied with the result.
(This is why reading the background briefing is so important as it will give you clues as to how to play the scenario).

I haven't checked the scenario but if there are turn based victory hexes, you may have gotten your victory by capturing them a few turns earlier.

Reg.

[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: Reg ]</p>

Resisti · Post by **Resisti** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:39 am

Fat slob,
this is one of the leit motivs for new gamers.
There weekly posts abt this popping out in the forum.
Remember that against AI the important is not to win(which is always the case) but how you win.Under this respect is essential to reduce at the minumum your losses;it is as much important as to kill yr enemy.
Of course if the VH's are points-per-turn ones you have to run after them as fast as you can.

Against AI
Draw:below 3:1
marginal victory equal/above 3:1 and below 6:1
decisive victory equal/above 6:1

ruxius · Post by **ruxius** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 2:11 pm

Hello fatlob..., I can understand you..but I agree with all the comments here..to help you understand what happens let me tell you some tips about designing scenarios..
The SPwaw's editor allows the designer to decide how many battle points are needed for either a draw or a decisive victory ...
When you play an AI generated battle there are some default parameters which decides (ratio 3:1 or else as explained up here )..
these values can be modified by a human designer in a custom scenario...that way the therms of a victory may be modified to better represent some
characteristics of that particular battle...
Maybe you are expected to manouvering so fast to cut off any enemy's retreating...or you are asked to bear no losses..consider that the designer is also able to change the cost of units ..this may influence heavily the final score !
Since these issues belong to the designer's project you can't expect anything as 'normal' there

We have also to understand that playtesters help the designer to balance its scenario..and this is not an easy task...some designers are making their first experience here and they need to grow...

The first thing to do is write a note to the designer asking to him about your results..
maybe you can help him to improve that scenario..
on the contrary you can recognize how that scenario should be played...

A weel done scenario always neeed the collaboration of its players..
Do not be angry...maybe that day your troops were asked to do the 'impossible'...

Bye

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:41 pm

Good comments all the guys <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

First you'll have to annihilate every unit of AI, includes crews. This is the base thinking. ? how come then in "catch a train" -scenario you loose if you'll stay and annihilate? Good question. Trick is to save battle in very early, I'll save in turn one before I open the turn. This is just because if I have totally misunderstood designer, goal of the battle, I can start it over in campaign also. ( I don't want to make it too easy so I'll start from previous deploy that I've done. ) This is advise for everybody. More you want to start over more it proofs that you liked it. ? <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> If you get pissed off, then its most likely because you have just noted that you are not the best. And that is what I do like. Don't take this personally, this is how I think.

Second thing is just this tester versus designer. Lots of goods scenarios have been crushed by testers, some even forgotten. Designeer needs opinions outside of his/her own head. Someone who plays it as it was not designed to be played. These testers are very valuable. Some call them Hardcore testers, I call them my friends. ( From my point of view as a designer they are friends whose 'job' is to make me sweat. ) Of this issue can and should be discussed more.

Third point is technical. In old scenarios/ campaigns some countries are more or less AIs countries. They are that because their units cost is low. I mean very low. And when OOBs and game has been developed their cost has gone even lower. Sovjets and Japans are in there. How to resolve this by designer? Add value in unit -cost, found in editor/ 'D'-key (data) IE T-34s for AI from 115 to 200. Then unit when destroyed gives this 200+ 30 - 60 to final battle score.

( Note that when you edit unit cost/value you'll change AIs behavior. IE Take Italian sniper. Cost is 14 points. Go to deploy/ data of the sniper. Add its cost to 999 and go back to deploy. Make desert map and add US Army for AI. Hide sniper in some mountain. Save and start scenario. AI will go thru every unit/formation that you can put against it to find that sniper. Its cost is now 1018 in final score. Try it, I've tried... if you wish name the poor guy to Asama bin Laden. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> )

Nothing more. Its whisky a go-go now. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> Bye.

mosh

Ballan · Post by **Ballan** » Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:48 pm

Sure, do you remember the old days with previous SP games, you needed a 10 - 1 point advantage to receive a major victory.

Larry Smith · Post by **Larry Smith** » Sat Sep 22, 2001 7:34 pm

I recently played out against the Belgians in May 1940, and wound up with just under 13000 to about 4100. After I had annihilated ever last enemy, I stayed off the last victory hex, hoping to see if the time-valued hexes would push up my score. Alas, no dice I was 12,968 on turn 12 and still there on turn 21! This despite having fourteen hexes rated at 20/turn. With no enemy on map, I had won, and dragging out the game was pointless. SO I sucked in my pride and took it like a man. (Yeah, right)

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sat Sep 22, 2001 10:36 pm

Skukko - Depends very much on how the designer has set up the VH's - and some of them unfortunately do not yet understand this. I am speaking generally when I say wipe out the enemy and control ALL VH's on or before the halfway point. This will get you a Decisive in MOST scearios - IIRC very nearly every one of Wild Bill's, among others.

Some designers think it is cute or funny - I guess - to make it impossible for the player to get a Decisive. I make a mental note of who these designers are and do not play their scenarios in the future.

This is about all we can do. If you still like the scenario / campaign, play it and print up a nice banner on your inkjet or laser printer: " I WIPED OUT THE ENEMY !!!!" Then tape it to the wall so you can see it when you play that designer's product next time you play (if ever - there are some scenarios I won't even look at).

Carborundum illigemati non est!

Bing

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 5:53 am

Bing brings up a good point about designed scens with DVs that I think I can explain.

Back with MCNA - I don't know about LV - the design criteria was that the acerage player would get a draw, that if you played real well you'd get a MV, and DVs were possible yet very very unlikely. Note that some of us testers, like myself, argued that this was not the best way to set things up.

However, what I've personnaly seen over the last 6 months or so, is that a lot of scen designers have taken this formula and applied it to thier non MC scens.

Personally, I disagree with using a draw as the baseline victory condition.

Why?

First, it sucks to get a draw. I'd much rather lose than get a draw. This holds even more true if you play well enough to win, but get the draw because of edited unit point values.

Second, I belive that if you accomplish the assigned mission unless you take very heavy casualties, and sometimes even then, you should get a MV. However, I do agree that DVs should be very hard to get.

But, by designing for a draw, and using the A0 120 morale tweak to avoid early endings - which, btw, are normally - though not always - DVs, we'll keep seeing more draws than perhaps we'd like.

Alex

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 2:03 pm

Hi again <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I think that if you get all VOs and wipe out enemy to its last man, you should get minor victory if you have loosed less than 50 -60% of your force. If you loose less than 75% of your force you should be given pleasure to a Decisive Vitory. These conditions are easily set up by adjusting value of VOs.

But as I tried to explain; If you win with German inf squad (value 21-28) platoon of conscripts (value 12-16) VOs should be at level where you get Decisive.

mosh

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:40 pm

Originally posted by ruxius:
Hello fatlob..., I can understand you..but I agree with all the comments here..

The SPwaw's editor allows the designer to decide how many battle points are needed for either a draw or a decisive victory ...

Really? How do you do this...

11Bravo · Post by **11Bravo** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:43 pm

This is just a guess....

I think you can do this for a campaign, but not for a scenerio? Look under the edit campaign screen? I know you can alter the buy/upgrade/whatever points.

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: 11Bravo ]</p>

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 6:45 pm

Originally posted by fat slob:
I just finished playing Gotanda's Advance as the Japs.
I completely annihilated the ANZAC forces and captured all the objectives.
I had numerous squads left that I didn't even need to use.
I must have had three entire platoons that didn't see any action.
And yet I was only given a draw???
I love this game and I'm grateful to everyone at Matrix, but what gives?

We are doing something about this in the Campaign Collectives long russian campaign. The text at the end of the battle will give a summary of what is expected in order to achieve different levels of victory. The points issued by the computer will no longer be relavent. This is especially helpful if the scenario designer makes the battle especially hard, where just surviving may be a victory in it's own right.

here is an example text (from Darrock)

Victory Notes;

If you hold all VHs at the end of the battle it is a strong victory. If you have also lost fewer than 15 units from your core force then you have achieved a decisive victory.

Destruction of virtually all enemy forces is also a strong victory although their losses must outweigh your own considerably.

A marginal victory is any case where one or more VHs is German-controlled by end of game. As your losses exceed 15 or more core force units, your begin heading for a draw.

If the Germans “cut” the Gomel-Briansk road, meaning they hold ANY VHs on the west-east road at the end of the game, this is a defeat. 30% or more losses to your core is also a defeat.

Also, total elimination of all AUX units will mean that your unit must hold the line when the Panzers return in force, with full STUKA support…enough AUX units must survive to form the core of a defense to which future stragglers can be reformed and added. This enables your unit to pull out and survive.

Finally, since tank production is crippled by factory relocation, minimizing your tank losses is especially crucial for the next battles.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:11 am

Originally posted by A_B:

Really? How do you do this...

I think it's the D key, when in the deploy screen when you're creating the scen. It calls up a unit info screen that lets you change the units name, it's weapons, ammo, experience, morale, point value, etc

Alex

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:38 am

Originally posted by Alexandra:

I think it's the D key, when in the deploy screen when you're creating the scen. It calls up a unit info screen that lets you change the units name, it's weapons, ammo, experience, morale, point value, etc

Alex

I know about changing point value of individual units, or globally for one side or another, but can the victory ratio be reset, ie; a draw if the point spread is between 1:1 and 1.5:1? Thats what the above post implies.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 5:47 pm

Originally posted by A_B:

I know about changing point value of individual units, or globally for one side or another, but can the victory ratio be reset, ie; a draw if the point spread is between 1:1 and 1.5:1? Thats what the above post implies.

I don't know about that. Haven't done enough design work myself to learn that.

Maybe Bill, or Redleg, or Figmo, or Neil can field that one.

Alex