Ike: Countdown to D-Day

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mavraam
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by mavraam »

ORIGINAL: Von Rom
ORIGINAL: VictorH

Excellent Show right down to Ike the Chain Smoker!

IN particular I was intrigued by the comments between Churchill and Ike at the beginning about the debate as to whether they should bomb Germany out of the war or invade. I really don't recall reading much about this debate and don't know if it actaully occurred to the degree aluded to in the show.

It is an interesting insight ito Allied strategy. I wonder how far the bombing campaign would have gone?

According to a Wings Discovery documentary I was watching, we ran a long campaign of tactical bombing with the idea of destroying all of the German planes in the air or ground before the invasion so that they would have as little air resistance as possible. That would obviously helped a strategic bombing campaign as well.
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mavraam
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by mavraam »

I certainly hope this movie is being shown in Europe.

You know the drill:
a) They won't watch it.
b) They'll claim its simplistic American propoganda.
c) It won't change their perspective one bit.

Sad but true.
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marky
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by marky »

d. they cant stand the fact that America had to save their childish tail AGAIN

e. they hate being reminded of that fact

also VERY true imho.....
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Von Rom
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: mavraam
I certainly hope this movie is being shown in Europe.

You know the drill:
a) They won't watch it.
b) They'll claim its simplistic American propoganda.
c) It won't change their perspective one bit.

Sad but true.

I'm afraid you're right.

I think that means they'll keep right on making the same mistakes again. . .
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

I missed the show, pity.

But, I am left to wonder, if my movie I have in my collection called Ike, would be like Tora Tora Tora is to the later movie Pearl Harbour (although I won't say this new Ike thing was that bad).

I thought the movie Ike was well enough done.

I must say though. I recently watched a long documentary on the post war Ike, and he sure was different as a president than as a military individual.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Von Rom
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

I must say though. I recently watched a long documentary on the post war Ike, and he sure was different as a president than as a military individual.

In what ways, Les?
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Well in light of what I saw on the show, and in spite of how this will sound unamerican and antiamerican (which seems a knee jerk reaction lately to anything not glorifyng americans).

But he came across as a most manipulative swine. It was the material concerning the handling of Honduras.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Major Destruction
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Major Destruction »

The movie provides a concise history of the personalities and is given to unfair portrayals in some instances. I suspect that portrayals are incorrect or generalised in every case but I don't know about all the characters to comment.

For example
PATTON

Patton's break down after being redressed for his slapping incident is one case in point. According to Ike's book Crusade in Europe (highly recommended) Paton visited Ike on several occassions at Ike's quarters where they enjoyed stimulating conversation well into the small hours. The sobbin on Ike's shoulder and the helmet dropping on the floor (what was all that about?) is supposed to show us that Patton had a wide range of emotion. however the movie portrays Patton as some kind of patsy. Unfair!
Certainly Ike reminded Patton to not make any more embarrasing speeches but I think the slapping incident had been dealt with and buried in Sicily. Bringing up the incident in the movie is the producer's way of reminding us of the background. I believe that this time-shifting of incidents gives the viewer some false understanding of the relationship between the two men who considered each other as close friends.

MONTGOMERY
Monty's call for the incisive strike on a narrow front (twice!) is another indelicate handling of events by the producers. Made only for US audiences and sure to be hammered in Britain, this incident totally glosses over the fact that in planning for the ivasion, it was Monty who insisted on the 5 division assault over the 3 division assault that had been originally proposed by the Americans. Interestingly, Ike recalls in his book that it was he, Ike, who insisted on the 5 Division front.
We also always forget that it was Monty who planned all his operations from the standpoint of supply. The set piece attack that riles American history buffs is certainly not the stuff of the incisive assault on a narrow front.
Ike, in his Crusade in Europe, mentions that at some time or other, every General pestered him for enough forces to make an incisive assault on Germany but this was much later. The reference to Monty no doubt reminds us all of the Arnhem attack which went so very wrong. Again, time shifting this into the Normandy planning phase is unfair.

Ike tells us that the planners of Overlord always understood fully the objective first of landing a force in France and then of advancing on a broad front to the Siegfried Line (Westwall). Only after that, the plan was to advance into Germany via the northern route- north of the Ardennes. He states that at no time was this plan ever abandoned, even momentarily. Judging by Ike's veiled dislike of Monty, one supposes that had Monty made such comments contrary to the 'plan' in public that Ike would have mentioned it.

DE GAULLE
De Gaulle not doubt was a pompous ass. Between him and Leclerc, there was enough trouble caused by prematurely capturing Paris and trying to hold Strasbourg that the events in the Ardennes eclipsed.

De Gaulle, as president, is well known for his NON! to Britain when they wanted to join the common market in the sixties while Germany was a full member. Strange bedfellows!Even so, portraying de Gaulle as a little man (he was 6'5" tall IIRC) is again unfair. Of course, Tome Sellick is no shorty so the casters would have been hard pressed to find an actor to play de Gaulle of suitable stature who was not a professional basketball player.

De Gaulle did what he believed was correct for France, however misundestood that might be then - or now- and the directors attempt to portray him as a petulant creep is, perhaps, childish.

EISENHOWER
Nobody can say any ill about Ike, can they? We like Ike, don't we? [&o]

OTHER
There will be many references to minor errors in the film. Ike wearing British boots and webbing on his visit to the 101st on June 6th (it happened on June 5th and Ike wore his usual dress uniform with shoes) is one of note. But those are so minor. I want to see history told honestly. My misgivings about the portrayals of key figures makes me wonder about the other figures of whom I know so little.

How accurate was it?
They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC
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Von Rom
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Well in light of what I saw on the show, and in spite of how this will sound unamerican and antiamerican (which seems a knee jerk reaction lately to anything not glorifyng americans).

But he came across as a most manipulative swine. It was the material concerning the handling of Honduras.

Politics can be a nasty business, no doubt.
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Von Rom
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by Von Rom »

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

The movie provides a concise history of the personalities and is given to unfair portrayals in some instances. I suspect that portrayals are incorrect or generalised in every case but I don't know about all the characters to comment.

For example
PATTON

Patton's break down after being redressed for his slapping incident is one case in point. According to Ike's book Crusade in Europe (highly recommended) Paton visited Ike on several occassions at Ike's quarters where they enjoyed stimulating conversation well into the small hours. The sobbin on Ike's shoulder and the helmet dropping on the floor (what was all that about?) is supposed to show us that Patton had a wide range of emotion. however the movie portrays Patton as some kind of patsy. Unfair!
Certainly Ike reminded Patton to not make any more embarrasing speeches but I think the slapping incident had been dealt with and buried in Sicily. Bringing up the incident in the movie is the producer's way of reminding us of the background. I believe that this time-shifting of incidents gives the viewer some false understanding of the relationship between the two men who considered each other as close friends.

MONTGOMERY
Monty's call for the incisive strike on a narrow front (twice!) is another indelicate handling of events by the producers. Made only for US audiences and sure to be hammered in Britain, this incident totally glosses over the fact that in planning for the ivasion, it was Monty who insisted on the 5 division assault over the 3 division assault that had been originally proposed by the Americans. Interestingly, Ike recalls in his book that it was he, Ike, who insisted on the 5 Division front.
We also always forget that it was Monty who planned all his operations from the standpoint of supply. The set piece attack that riles American history buffs is certainly not the stuff of the incisive assault on a narrow front.
Ike, in his Crusade in Europe, mentions that at some time or other, every General pestered him for enough forces to make an incisive assault on Germany but this was much later. The reference to Monty no doubt reminds us all of the Arnhem attack which went so very wrong. Again, time shifting this into the Normandy planning phase is unfair.

Ike tells us that the planners of Overlord always understood fully the objective first of landing a force in France and then of advancing on a broad front to the Siegfried Line (Westwall). Only after that, the plan was to advance into Germany via the northern route- north of the Ardennes. He states that at no time was this plan ever abandoned, even momentarily. Judging by Ike's veiled dislike of Monty, one supposes that had Monty made such comments contrary to the 'plan' in public that Ike would have mentioned it.

DE GAULLE
De Gaulle not doubt was a pompous ass. Between him and Leclerc, there was enough trouble caused by prematurely capturing Paris and trying to hold Strasbourg that the events in the Ardennes eclipsed.

De Gaulle, as president, is well known for his NON! to Britain when they wanted to join the common market in the sixties while Germany was a full member. Strange bedfellows!Even so, portraying de Gaulle as a little man (he was 6'5" tall IIRC) is again unfair. Of course, Tome Sellick is no shorty so the casters would have been hard pressed to find an actor to play de Gaulle of suitable stature who was not a professional basketball player.

De Gaulle did what he believed was correct for France, however misundestood that might be then - or now- and the directors attempt to portray him as a petulant creep is, perhaps, childish.

EISENHOWER
Nobody can say any ill about Ike, can they? We like Ike, don't we? [&o]

OTHER
There will be many references to minor errors in the film. Ike wearing British boots and webbing on his visit to the 101st on June 6th (it happened on June 5th and Ike wore his usual dress uniform with shoes) is one of note. But those are so minor. I want to see history told honestly. My misgivings about the portrayals of key figures makes me wonder about the other figures of whom I know so little.

How accurate was it?

Great summary of personalities [:)]

I agree that there was so much in the film that was basically glossed over and/or summarized.

I have a feeling that the character portraits were condensed versions of those people (I thought all the character traits of each person was done rather well - except for Patton). This is a simplified approach, I agree, and lends itself to some distortion.

There was so much material that could have been covered in the span of time covered by the movie, that inevitably, I think, some, or many, details had to suffer.

If nothing else, the film at least leaves us with the impression of the difficulties that faced Ike.

I think any proper film on this subject would have to be many times longer than just two hours.

Goes to show you that there is no need for fiction, when there are so many great, true events and personalities to draw upon from history.

Cheers!
tanker4145
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by tanker4145 »

Les, I find your opinion on Ike as president interesting. In a grand strategy course I took in college, I came to the opinion that Ike was a near genius as a Presidental strategist. Especially how he dealt with the Russians. But of course, I'm no Ike expert and have no idea about the incident you mention. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in I guess [;)]
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dinsdale
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RE: Ike: Countdown to D-Day

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: mavraam
According to a Wings Discovery documentary I was watching, we ran a long campaign of tactical bombing with the idea of destroying all of the German planes in the air or ground before the invasion so that they would have as little air resistance as possible. That would obviously helped a strategic bombing campaign as well.
Well the first Strategic Bombing campaign began in 1940 and was a British initiative which was later adopted by the USAF. The Brits bombed by night, the Americans by day. Until his death-bed Air Marshal Harris resented Eisenhower for calling a halt to the campaign to use the SBs for pre-D-Day missions. He believed that the war could have been won by air power alone.

I don't agree with him, but it's plausible given what happened in Japan. Dresden killed more and created more damage than either Nagasaki or Hiroshima, perhaps 3-4 of those in 1944 might have forced Germany to surrender.

-------------------

Major Destruction Nice informative post, I haven't seen the movie yet but you certainly do a good job summarizing the real and tv characters.
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