How do you use 50mm mortars?

fat slob · Post by **fat slob** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 12:41 am

I found them difficult to use in an offensive role.
If I understand correctly, any Arty 50mm or smaller assigned to a platoon can only be plotted by the platoon leader. And if they don't have radios then they have to be within 3 hexes of the platoon leader.

Due to the shorter ranges, they have to be moved close to the action, which can be a fair distance. But if you move them, they lose the use of the tube for that turn.
So you get them up where the action is and then try not to move them, but then you're losing the use of the leader's squad 'cause he's got to be within 3 hexes!

It's a nice catch 22.
Am I missing something here?

Is there an effective way of using these things?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Tomanbeg · Post by **Tomanbeg** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:31 am

2 things. 1, the platoon mortars are excellent for point targets. 2. an APO or FO can order them to fire, but it takes a platoon leader to shift their fire. I put the mortar in the same hex as the zero squad they report to. Then I turn off the slot 2 weapons. So what I have in effect is a real big squad with some extra fire power. All rules have exceptions, and the one for this is the US 60 mortar that has M1's in slot 2 and 3, and 8 men. I'll bet you play with C&C off. A rifle platoon should stay within sight of each other anyway. How can they support each other if they are half a click apart? A platoon in defense should have no more then 2 hexes between squads. In the attack the squads should be adjacent( 1 hex for a holding attack). The gaps are covered with ranged weapons. If it looks like you don't have enough troops, you are trying to defend to much. Remember, he who defends everywhere defends nowhere. You can get away with breaking the rules against the AI, but a human player will see where the fire is coming from, figure out that you are trying to control to much frontage, then concentrate a platoon or company on a squad. The squad dies and your opponent heads for what you should have been defending in the first place. I know whem I'm doing this because it seems like my opponent has a LOT more troops then I do. That means he has mass and is concentrating his forces, while I am defending someplace that isn't being attacked.
T.

john g · Post by **john g** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:33 am

Originally posted by fat slob:
I found them difficult to use in an offensive role.
If I understand correctly, any Arty 50mm or smaller assigned to a platoon can only be plotted by the platoon leader. And if they don't have radios then they have to be within 3 hexes of the platoon leader.

Due to the shorter ranges, they have to be moved close to the action, which can be a fair distance. But if you move them, they lose the use of the tube for that turn.
So you get them up where the action is and then try not to move them, but then you're losing the use of the leader's squad 'cause he's got to be within 3 hexes!

It's a nice catch 22.
Am I missing something here?

Is there an effective way of using these things?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

If you are playing a campaign, those mortars are a prime cantidate for a weapon swap. In my last British WWII campaign, the 2in mortars were upgraded to 25 pdr GH. Long range, antitank capability, fair hitting power, and most importantly they have radios. They maintained their fast response arty code from the mortars so each platoon had a 25 pdr on call, or several more a little later.

If you are playing generated battles or others where you can't replace that small mortar, learn to suck it up, they don't have the range of
US 60mm mortars or the convienence of being a squad weapon like the Japanese knee mortars. I never could fit the small mortars into a combined arms op.
thanks, John.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:03 am

There is a use for 45-60 mm mortars. Use them as close in, direct fire weapons. You don't run in to the "where's the Leader?" problem. Use them as a stun gun to help out the squad as they attack an infantry target. You won't kill much with them but they add a good number of supression points to the target.

The attack plan:

1 DF 50mm mortar into target hex
2 MG target hex
3 move up infantry and attack target.

A 50mm mortar will almost never be spotted, even after many shots. The suppression will make the MG harder to spot - probably no OP fire back at it. The target will now be so dopey, they won't shoot at the infantry in the move up.

Tommy

fat slob · Post by **fat slob** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:37 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john g:
[QB]

...the convienence of being a squad weapon like the Japanese knee mortars...

Actually, these are the exact units I was referring to!
I guess I didn't find them very convenient.

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:59 am

Well sir, this is a subject I have brooded over and I think I have the solution.
Already back in SP1 I was aware of the 50mm mortar although it was hardly represented in the game at all. And in any case, who would ever bother to plot indirect fire for such a feeble weapon. This, and that auxiliary infantry weapons like MMGs, ATR and such bother me a lot with moving them around in tiny units, it is a real bore. What I did was move these weapons into the squads. I created heavy weapons squads, 2-3 per company, with the following characteristics:
Weapons:
Rifle;
MMG;
ATR;
50mm mortar;
Speed: 6-7;
Men: ~12;
Radio: slightly higher than rifle squad;
Type: heavy infantry.
I use a heavy squad sometimes as HQ for each platoon, sometimes 1-3 heavy squads in the company base formation.
To me, this is a very satisfactory solution for a number of problems. Less fuss, fewer units, increased survivability for the support weapons. If the crew of an important weapon is wiped out, does that mean the weapon is permanently lost? Hardly. The accuracy of the OB may suffer because of this, but that is a small price to pay.

Why not report a bug while we are here: The german 81mm mortar gets twice its crew (5*2 = 10 men). I reduced it to 3, so now it only gets 6 <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

troopie · Post by **troopie** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 5:40 am

I use 2in, 45 and 50mm mortars strictly as direct fire weapons. They haven't the range to be effective indirect fire weapons.

And Fogger i saw your sig line. It reminds me of a slogan of a Romeo Mike team in SWA. "Killing is our business. Business is good."

troopie

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:09 am

I enjoy using the Soviet 50mm (range 18). The Japanese knee mortars are fun to play with. The rest seem to be more bother than they are worth except on defense.

If the 50s seperate units and not tied to the squad leader, they would be a bit more useful.

Alexandra · Post by **Alexandra** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:17 am

Small mortars are also very effective direct fire anti vehicle weapons. Very useful against halftracks and trucks and sometimes against tanks.

Alex

john g · Post by **john g** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:33 pm

Originally posted by Fogger:
Why not report a bug while we are here: The german 81mm mortar gets twice its crew (5*2 = 10 men). I reduced it to 3, so now it only gets 6 <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

If you are referring to the late war 81mm mortar squad in the infantry company, that is a 2 tube unit, it should have double the crew.

Remember the engine this is based on was SPIII where all units had mutiple tanks, guns, etc.

Some of the units still have mutiple tubes, like the Japanese 3 mortar squads. It gives you a unit that is inbetween the one tube onboard units and the 4 tube offboard units. This way you only spend one order to call in two 81mm mortars, it is a little less flexible but more efficient.
thanks, John.

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:48 pm

Originally posted by fat slob:
I found them difficult to use in an offensive role.
If I understand correctly, any Arty 50mm or smaller assigned to a platoon can only be plotted by the platoon leader. And if they don't have radios then they have to be within 3 hexes of the platoon leader.

Due to the shorter ranges, they have to be moved close to the action, which can be a fair distance. But if you move them, they lose the use of the tube for that turn.
So you get them up where the action is and then try not to move them, but then you're losing the use of the leader's squad 'cause he's got to be within 3 hexes!

It's a nice catch 22.
Am I missing something here?

Is there an effective way of using these things?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Not to toot my own horn but(toot, toot) <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Tactical use of the 50mm Mortar Squad (German, 5cm Granatwerfer 36) in Steel Panthers World at War (Ver. 6.1).
First a little history, there are basically three classes of mortar. The first is the Platoon support weapon usually assigned at Company level in a separate Heavy Weapons Platoon. The second is a Company support weapon usually assigned at Battalion level in a separate Heavy Weapons Company. The third is (what I call) the Battalion support weapon usually assigned at the Regimental level in a separate Artillery/Mortar Battery. These usually consist of the Heavy Mortars 120mm, 4.2 in, etc.

Examples of the first two classes are as follows:

Platoon support weapons: (1)

Country : English
Mortar : 2" Mortar
Range : 500 yards
Weight of projectile : 2.25lb

Country : US
Mortar : 60mm Mortar
Range : 1,985 yards
Weight of projectile : 3lb

Country : Italian
Mortar : 4.5cm Model 35
Range : 550 meters
Weight of projectile : 1lb

Country : German
Mortar : 5cm Granatwerfer 36
Range : 500 meters
Weight of projectile : 2lb

Company support weapons: (1)

Country : English
Mortar : 3" Mortar
Range : 1600 yards
Weight of projectile : 10lb

Country : US
Mortar : 81mm Mortar
Range : 3,290 yards
Weight of projectile : 6.87lb

Country : Italian
Mortar : 81mm Model 35
Range : 4,430 yards
Weight of projectile : 7lb

Country : German
Mortar : 81mm Granatwerfer 34
Range : 2,400 meters
Weight of projectile : 7.07lb

As you can see the Platoon support weapons, with the exception of the US 60 mm Mortar, have a very short range for an indirect fire weapon. The reason appears to be that these mortars were developed in WWI where the battles lines were static and were mainly used for direct fire. The purpose of the mortar is to provide infantry with it's own artillery that can be quickly applied to a target. Mortars were used to suppress strong points such as machine gun nest. In WWII the increase in mobility made many of the Platoon support mortars oboslete. To quote Ian Hogg:

"In the German army the mortar was widely and effectively employed, though since their standard designs appeared to satisfy them there was little attempt to improve the performance. The 5cm Granatwerfer 36 was less and less used as the war became on of movement, and indeed by 1942 it was virtually obsolescent. It was generally replaced with a shortened version of the 81mm, the Short Model 42, popularly called the Stummelwefer (stumpy mortar). This fired the same bombs as the standard weapon to 1,200 yards, weighed only 62 lbs complete, and became a particular favourite with airborne and SS troops."(1)

Please note that Mr. Hogg appears to mix his English and metric units.

In Steel Panthers World at War the 5cm Granatwerfer 36 (5cm LeGW36) has the following characteristics in the OOB:
Weapon: 040
Range: 5cm LeGW36
Weapons Class: 02-Secondary Infantry
Max Range: 44 (11 Hexes)
Max APCR: 0
Accuracy: 8
Warhead: 3
HE Kill: 4
Pen. AP: 0
Pen. HE: 12
Pen. APCR: 0
Pen. HEAT: 0
Weapon Sixe: 2

The 50mm Mortar Squad characteristics in the OOB:
Unit: 133
Class: 80-Light Mortar
Crew: 4
Speed: 8
Avaiable: Jan 1936 to 1949
ROF: 9
Rounds HE: 40
FC 0
Target: 0
RgF: 0

As noted above the 50mm Mortar Squad has limited usage as an indirect fire weapon because of its range. However it does have some tactical use in heavily wooded or built up areas such as cities where its limited range is not a factor since the mortar can be placed close to the target and still be concealed. If you are firing over a line of woods (that can not be seen through) at a MG nest in the next line of wood then it is excellent as a suppression weapon. Placed just behind the crest of a hill supporting a platoon dug in on the other side during low visibility or as a weapon to be used close in to the individual Squads of the Platoon.
Remember that even though the FO can call in fire from the 50mm Mortar Squad it can not shift the fire, only the Company or Platoon commander can shift the point of impact as well as call in the original fire mission.
In direct fire mode the 50mm Mortar Squad suffers from it's short range since it can not fire on a unit from outside that units firing range. Fortunately the unit is small and hard to spot. Early in the war the armor penetration of 12 is useful since many of the light tanks, Armored Cars and Personal Carriers of the time were only armored against rifle and MG fire. Thus it provides a very valuable anti-armor capability for the German Platoon, which is sorely lacking.
Upgrades: unfortunately there is no Stummelwefer in the game and the standard 81mm Grwefer can only be purchased as a section not as individual mortars. One of the better solutions is to replace the 50mm Mortar Squad with a second MMG squad. This gives the Platoon no indirect fire support weapon but does give a tremendous boost to the Platoons firepower. If you expect to encounter a large number of light armored vehicles then German ATG may be a better selection.

These guidelines also apply to any country that uses Platoon support Mortars with limited range.

(1)In each country different models of the caliber have slightly different characteristics. All data is from Grenades & Mortars by Ian Hogg, Ballantine's Illustrated History of the Violent Century weapons book no. 37

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]</p>

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:18 pm

I usually forget I have 50mm mortar teams.. <img src="redface.gif" border="0">
So I remember it about 6-7 turns into the game, and the poor troopies spend the rest of the battle running their legs off to catch up with the rest of their platoon. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:29 am

To make them participate in gameplay better they should have the same movement rate of the infantry they are with... but hey.

Tomo

fat slob · Post by **fat slob** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:59 am

Originally posted by Fogger:
What I did was move these weapons into the squads. I created heavy weapons squads, 2-3 per company,

Forgive my newbieness, but how exactly is this done in a stock scenario?

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:16 am

Fat slob: Impossible, unless you remake the scenario.

Redleg · Post by **Redleg** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 12:02 am

50mm mortars make excellent aircraft "magnets" against an opponent who is in love with air strikes! Try it some time. One of the best ways I have found to draw air strikes away from my infantry is a 50mm mortar sitting somewhere.

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:38 am

I made a scenario for this.

One British platoon must take the German positions. German forces are 1 MG42 and 1 squad.
A0 and a few scouts are about 1000m away when they hear the shooting and come running.

Take the flags, dig in and repulse the counter attack to win.

Win with 0 or 1 casualty and you score a decisive victory.
Win with 5 casualties and you score a moderate victory
A win with more than 5 casualties is not much of a win.

Tip: If you use your 2" mortar for direct fire, you'll get wiped out.

Where can I post this scenario?

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 3:23 pm

Originally posted by 13Z:
50mm mortars make excellent aircraft "magnets" against an opponent who is in love with air strikes! Try it some time. One of the best ways I have found to draw air strikes away from my infantry is a 50mm mortar sitting somewhere.

OOOOOH then surround them with AA.
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 6:20 pm

Originally posted by Tomanbeg:
2 things. 1, the platoon mortars are excellent for point targets. 2. an APO or FO can order them to fire, but it takes a platoon leader to shift their fire. [snip]
T.

Several people have commented that only a PL can shift this fire but I tested it last night and a FO CAN shift 50mm fire. I am running ver 7.