The greatest naval commander of the 20th century

[adsoul]

I read a thread where Ernie King is stated as "the greatest naval commander of the twentieth century". Everybody does agree?

[Drex]

I don't think King had any combat experience. The greatest naval commander would have to have experience in naval combat but it depends on what your definition is. Are you really saying naval strategist? or are you referring to someone who has successfully led fleets like Halsey or Spruance?

[adsoul]

Good question. I think we should have two answers, about the best strategist and the best commander at sea. What about Tanaka?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: adso

I read a thread where Ernie King is stated as "the greatest naval commander of the twentieth century". Everybody does agree?

The dude did not even initiate the convoy system when Uboats started gutting the east coast! Who the hell said that he was the best?

I'm kind of partial to Jellicoe or Cunningham. And I think Fletcher deserves more than he gets. Hipper deserves mention.

Best naval commander any rank. Mueller of the SMS Emden.

[Pascal_slith]

Frank Jack Fletcher in the Pacific.

Karl Doenitz in the Atlantic.

[Hartley]

Togo ?

[byron13]

Best strategist: Mogami - far and away the best!

[Rendova]

Spurance...... He took a few odds and ends up to Midway and handed Nagumo his A$$ in a rusty pail. Then proceded to plain execute major operations for the rest of the war. THings would have been MUCH harder without Ray Spurance.[&o]

[Tophat]

Fletcher? Are you serious,really serious? Yes indeed,he covered himself with Glory in covering the Guadacanal landings now didn't he? I'm not saying he was the worst USN Flag officer but the best? I think not............

[Mr.Frag]

Seeing at you made the date range this wide, I think it can fairly be said that Jellicoe goes down in the history books as the all time looser.

Next to him, Fletcher is an "all star" [:D]

[Drex]

It might have to go to a more junior admiral who participated in more than one encounter and performed above average. Spruance was known only for Midway. Might have to be a Brit who was in the North Sea or the Med . Tanaka only lasted through the Guadalcanal campaign then he was transferred out of the war otherwise he might have been the one. Aand of course WWI fielded some commanders as was mentioned previously. I don't think there is one.

[Rendova]

ORIGINAL: Drex

It might have to go to a more junior admiral who participated in more than one encounter and performed above average. Spruance was known only for Midway. Might have to be a Brit who was in the North Sea or the Med . Tanaka only lasted through the Guadalcanal campaign then he was transferred out of the war otherwise he might have been the one. Aand of course WWI fielded some commanders as was mentioned previously. I don't think there is one.

Spurance didn't exactly go away after midway, in fact he planned most of the US operations in the Pacific, he just didn't like to be in the limelight ala Halsey

[RevRick]

I'd have to rate Spruance highly as well. The Battle of the Phillipine Sea was more his to loose, and he kept his focus on his mission - for which some have soundly, and wrongly, criticized him.

Andrew Cunningham, and Tanaka should also get some serious consideration. Halsey was firey, but more impetuous than the Apostle Peter, and that's going some.

You also could make a good case for Scheer - against difficult odds, he kept his fleet under control, and alive. It's not his fault the Kaiser was too scared to every use it properly.

[Mr.Frag]

You also could make a good case for Scheer

As I said, Jellico has to get the all time looser award. He had the chance to completely destroy the entire German fleet and came away with virtually *nothing*. Scheer really (considering he was basically not allowed to use his ships) won the day considering what he faced.

God I want a good Jutland multiplayer game [:D]

[Drex]

Then you are not referring to the wargame "Jutland" which is a ripoff of "Warship"?

[barbarrossa]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You also could make a good case for Scheer

As I said, Jellico has to get the all time looser award. He had the chance to completely destroy the entire German fleet and came away with virtually *nothing*. Scheer really (considering he was basically not allowed to use his ships) won the day considering what he faced.

God I want a good Jutland multiplayer game [:D]

Aye, 'm'in.

[Mr.Frag]

Then you are not referring to the wargame "Jutland" which is a ripoff of "Warship"?

Nope, talking about the real thing.

Avalon Hill did a pretty good version, but it required an entire basement to play.

[Mark VII]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Then you are not referring to the wargame "Jutland" which is a ripoff of "Warship"?

Nope, talking about the real thing.

Avalon Hill did a pretty good version, but it required an entire basement to play.

Ah yes, remember playing AH Jutland over at a friends basement around 1974. Using yard sticks for movement and ranges. After two weeks the game ended in a victory for the cat when he destroyed most of the battleship columns(played hockey with them) and chewed up several ships including Beatty's flagship HMS Lion.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Seeing at you made the date range this wide, I think it can fairly be said that Jellicoe goes down in the history books as the all time looser.

Next to him, Fletcher is an "all star" [:D]

Jellicoe a loser? Despite only having one decent scouting Admiral, ironically named Goodenough, Jellicoe was able to deploy his fleet exquisitely. No minor achievement condifering the time of day, visibility, limited info,etc. Brilliant.

He cannot be held responsible for the design of his ships and should not be damned because many of his commanders like Beatty and Bertram failed him. Beatty, specifically, was a polyanna who was more interested in glory and the Nelsonian touch than performing like a modern fleet commander. His cavalier reporting during the battle severely hampered Jellicoe, but Jellicoe made all the right calls except maybe one, turning away to avoid torpedoes with the HSF in his clutches. Armchair admirals have burned Jellicoe for this ever since, but A) they were not on the hotseat and B) Marlborough was hit despite the evasive maneuver. How many British dreadnoughts would have been stricken and how would Jellicoe be judged if he steamed on ahead despite the threat? Jellicoe is screwed by the academics either way.

Jellicoe rocked as a naval commander by any measure.

[Mike Scholl]

Ron. Couple of additions to your defense of Jellicoe. He was the first Fleet Commander
to face the duel threat of Mines and Submarines; and make up a doctrine for dealing
with each threat. Not a mean feat when you consider that he had no real weapon to
use against submarines for half the war (until the deapth charge became available).
He was cautious because he knew he couldn't win the war in combat, but he could Lose
it. And he was saddled with trying to command a huge conglomeration of ships with
communications not much advanced from Nelson's day. With hindsight (and the perfect
visibility it provides) it's easy to say he missed opportunities. But with a typical dreary
and misty North Sea Day coupled with the smoke of over 200 coal burning ships and
inadequate communications gear he still managed to get sheer's neck in the noose twice.
That Sheer got it out again before the noose tightened is to Sheer's credit..., but it was
obvious which force was in desperate straits at nightfall. Jellicoe certainly deserves a
higher place in the list than King (who never commanded anything in action)