Allied Player vs Japan AI

[Von Rom]

Overall, I am quite pleased with the Japanese AI.

Ground combat losses look acceptable. It should make for some interesting battles when the US starts to re-take islands, etc. . .

The only thing that seems way too ahistorical is the Burma/Mandalay situation. The Japanese losing 800+ planes here (and mostly first-line pilots) in the first 4 months of the war is going to put a crimp in their invading lifestyle [:D]

Historically, Japan took Burma within 4 months - it was never a real contest.

Mr Frag is quite experienced and has definitely earned high marks for achieving the results he did in Burma.

However, I think it also indicates that a clever person (such as himself) has found a loop-hole in the game.

My suggestion to bring things more in line in this area would be:

1) Decrease starting fortifications in Mandalay from level 4 to level 1 (it could still be built up with engineers but may not reach level 9).

2) Increase Japanese pilot experience.

3) Decrease Allied pilot experience.

4) Tranfering planes and pilots to Burma should cause those units to take a hit in organization and fatigue.

All the above should help prevent the Allies from achieving super-experienced pilots and from knocking out hundreds of Japanese planes.

A very experienced WiTP player should be able to slow down the Japanese in this area in the first few months, but should be unable to stop the Japanese. . .

[Von Rom]

And:

5) There should be a big difference in experience levels between the Allied ground troops and Japanese troops in this theatre. The Japanese troops had spent years fighting in China and were extremely battle-hardened.

The figures say it all in the conquest of Burma:

The Japanese had lost 8,000 men, while the Allies had lost close to 100,000 men. . .

[Mr.Frag]

1) Decrease starting fortifications in Mandalay from level 4 to level 1.

Doesn't matter, i have more then enough engineers.

2) Increase Japanese pilot experience.

Had one of the high powered Tainan come north, it would have been radically different. Luck of the draw

3) Decrease Allied pilot experience.

They started in the 50 range, doesn't get much lower then that.

4) Tranfering planes and pilots to Burma should cause those units to take a hit in organization and fatigue.

They did, I lost a lot of aircraft in each transfer but they had about a month to recover before having to be pressed into action. Had they not gotten to play against equally low skilled pilots right off, they would not have had the chance to grow into such experts.

Basically, if you look at what has happened overall and ignore Mandalay as a abnormal situation (it has already been corrected in the game but I'm not going to restart *again*), Japan is doing pretty darn good. They just took Buna and it is still before May. That beats UV's time scale. I am not going to complain about a game that has just about caught up to UV with the hundred million variable possibilities up to this point in time. I hate to think where I would be right now had this been my first game! [;)]

[Mr.Frag]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/24/42

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TF 300 encounters mine field at Padang (17,53)

TF 300 troops unloading over beach at Padang, 17,53


Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported

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TF 300 encounters mine field at Padang (17,53)

TF 300 troops unloading over beach at Padang, 17,53


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TF 300 encounters mine field at Padang (17,53)

TF 300 troops unloading over beach at Padang, 17,53


Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported

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Day Air attack on Dacca , at 31,24

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
G3M Nell x 6
G4M1 Betty x 23

Allied aircraft
Lysander I x 7
Mohawk IV x 10
Buffalo I x 20
Hurricane II x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed
G3M Nell: 5 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 11 destroyed, 10 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Lysander I: 2 destroyed

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Day Air attack on Bulla , at 40,75

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
G4M1 Betty x 21
Ki-51 Sonia x 8
Ki-21 Sally x 16
Ki-49 Helen x 15

no losses

Runway hits 1

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Day Air attack on Port Moresby , at 53,91

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
G3M Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 12

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 40

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed
G3M Nell: 18 destroyed, 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 23 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 damaged

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Day Air attack on 1st WS Garrison Battalion, at 17,53

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 16
Ki-27 Nate x 19
Ki-21 Sally x 22
Ki-48 Lily x 9

no losses


Allied ground losses:
71 casualties reported

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Day Air attack on TF at 60,90


Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 29


no losses

Japanese Ships
DD Okikaze, Bomb hits 1
AK Dainiti Maru
AK Lyons Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Fukoku Maru
DD Nokaze, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Toshi Maru #7, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage


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Ground combat at 20,56

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2524 troops, 9 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 742 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 94 to 1



Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

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Ground combat at Padang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 4399 troops, 49 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 570 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Padang base !!!



Allied ground losses:
27 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

1) Decrease starting fortifications in Mandalay from level 4 to level 1.

Doesn't matter, i have more then enough engineers.

2) Increase Japanese pilot experience.

Had one of the high powered Tainan come north, it would have been radically different. Luck of the draw

3) Decrease Allied pilot experience.

They started in the 50 range, doesn't get much lower then that.

4) Tranfering planes and pilots to Burma should cause those units to take a hit in organization and fatigue.

They did, I lost a lot of aircraft in each transfer but they had about a month to recover before having to be pressed into action. Had they not gotten to play against equally low skilled pilots right off, they would not have had the chance to grow into such experts.

Basically, if you look at what has happened overall and ignore Mandalay as a abnormal situation (it has already been corrected in the game but I'm not going to restart *again*), Japan is doing pretty darn good. They just took Buna and it is still before May. That beats UV's time scale. I am not going to complain about a game that has just about caught up to UV with the hundred million variable possibilities up to this point in time. I hate to think where I would be right now had this been my first game! [;)]

I agree that you are very experienced. No doubt about it.

I'm also glad that the situation in Burma has been corrected.

I would certainly not want you to start over. Your AAR is a great thing to follow and has allowed us to make helpful suggestions on what we have seen so far.

If there are too many engineers than I would suggest as part of any corrections here, to decrease their number by half [:D]

And I agree that the Japanese AI has done very well.

But should the Japanese pilots have such low skill to start with, which allows the Allied pilots to become so experienced? The Japanese pilots should be very skilled at the very start of the game.

You know us wargamers - we want the AI to thrash us - and I mean whup us good - so that the fight to turn the tide will be even sweeter [:D]

[Jonny_B]

"You know us wargamers - we want the AI to thrash us - and I mean whup us good - so that the fight to turn the tide will be even sweeter " a quote from Von Rom

Amen Von Rom, I would like too have seen the Japanese kick better butt, at the start of the war.

And I still have a problem with the amount of Zero, Betty and Neils that have been shot down.

[Mr.Frag]

But should the Japanese pilots have such low skill to start with, which allows the Allied pilots to become so experienced? The Japanese pilots should be very skilled at the very start of the game.

There are a fair number of sub-standard A5M units that can be upgraded quickly to A6M's. They do not really have the skills to be in A6M's and you are seeing the effects.

One of the big complaints with UV was that it was 100% plane and 0% skill. That ratio has changed where skill can upset the curve and make up for plane. You are seeing the results, although it is also hampered by a flood of no skill pilots. The no skill pilots was caused by the AI wasting skilled pilots on recon/float/search units that do not required skilled pilots.

This has been corrected and I am already seeing the differences in the ops losses even though it has only been in effect for part of this past set of turns.

[brisd]

The AI seems capable against a very experienced player so it should give newbies a hard time. Mr Frag's explanation of how the Mandalay situation came about is reasonable IMHO and any player would like to be able to achieve those results. Skill and luck go hand in hand for success. I am curious how the situation was 'corrected already in the game'. My bigger concern is the loss of Japanese shipping to LBA. It seems each day a dozen LBA inflict damage on small groups of Japanese ships coming within close? range and resulting in large numbers of sunk ships. Japanese ship losses are far in excess of Allied and this should be the killing time for Japan. I know offensive operations necessitate losses and risks but seems excessive. Appreciate the LENGTHY AAR!!

[Mr.Frag]

Sorry about the Betty and Nell losses, but that is not going to change at all. They were paper thin. That is how they got their range and payload. One huge flying gas tank.

AA in WitP is far more realistic, these poor guys happen to suffer the brunt of this reality.

I suggest you do a bit of web reading on these aircraft. You will see clearly that they were withdrawn from front line service soon after the war started and used for running supplies and other menial tasks as they had *no* survivability at all. They only really had the one successful outing against the Brits who were still in shock.

[Mr.Frag]

Japanese ship losses are far in excess of Allied and this should be the killing time for Japan. I know offensive operations necessitate losses and risks but seems excessive.

We'll see how you guys fare [:D]

I'm pretty good at keeping ships alive although I have just lost a bunch of subs due to the ai kicking the snot out of Darwin where I had a bunch of subs resting [X(]

You have not really seen much Allied shipping in play because they have been running far south, completely out of range of any air or sub threats. Due to the shipping shortage the USA faces early on, you really cannot afford to loose any so you will hide them way away from the threats. The Japanese subs seem to have set up home surrounding Australia and even worse Noumea [:(] which just happens to be where I have all my ships at the moment. I spotted 14 subs in the area.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Jonny_B

"You know us wargamers - we want the AI to thrash us - and I mean whup us good - so that the fight to turn the tide will be even sweeter " a quote from Von Rom

Amen Von Rom, I would like too have seen the Japanese kick better butt, at the start of the war.

What we want is an AI that can "outplay" us..., not just one that has been artificially
reinforced to the point that even bad play can give it victory. The problem with that
solution is that when you play a "real" opponant the sides and abilities are totally
skewed. Japan, like other powers at the time, had been expanding it's forces in
preparation for the war. So not all of them were "battle-Hardened" or had "100's
of hours of combat flying" over China..., some were rather newly created and trained.

IF there is a problem in Burma why not look for real solutions rather than "give the
Japanese more" (which seems to be the only thing you guys can think of.) The prob-
lem with defending Burma in 1942 is that without free use of Rangoon it's virtually
impossible to supply. The lines of communication in the country run north-south, and
contact with India is virtually all by sea---once the Japanese control the air and water
leading to Rangoon, or the port itself; Allied forces should "melt away" from attrition
and supply difficulties and be forced to make the arduous trek through the Jungle to
India or run out of everything and have to surrender. It's the same problem the Japs
faced in trying to go any farther---even in 1944 they arrived at Imphal starving and
out of supply.

[brisd]

Mr Frag - my concern is the Japanese ships sailing into allied air zones and the high losses incurred so far in your AAR. Comments? Thanks.

[Mr.Frag]

If you look through the AAR, you will see multiple times where transports were hit around Rangoon.

While I owned it, I shipped every single unit that existed in India that was not static just as soon as they showed up down the Rangoon to hold the line at Moulmein. I lucked out in that not a single unit was lost. They all got off the ships safely.

At the same time, I also sent every unit that was not at a port racing down the rail lines towards Mandalay.

If you look through the screen shots and count the number of units shown, you will see that I have stripped all of India to do it. I also relocated the Southeast Asia command to be within range of Mandalay. Basically I stacked the deck as far as you can. To make it clear. Mandalay now has a assault strength of a little under 2,000. The entire rest of Southeast Asia has an assault strength of less then 100. [:D]

[MCKClaudi]

Can you please confirm the AI uses long-range CAP?. Reading through your combat reports, the only time I see AI fighters defending ships are when the '3 hexes rule' come in. This was also IMO the weakest part of the UV AI.

[byron13]

Guess there's no reason for Johnny B to peruse the WitP forum since he obviously shouldn't buy the game. Johnny, it'll never be good enough for you.

Von Rom, your suggestions are well-taken, but many of them would only exacerbate problems when the human plays the Japanese player against the AI. The imbalance would only be worse. Also, Frag has chosen a particular place to make a stand (well-chosen through experience, I'm sure). But making special rules for Mandalay or Burma or the CBI doesn't make sense. Frag could just as easily have picked some other spot to lure the AI onto its samurai sword. You can't have special rules for every possible trap for the AI.

Consensus seems to be that the AI is doing fairly well. No game on the market will have AI that can't be fooled by a human. Don't let Frag's successful strategy for one city color our opinions. Furthermore, I think Frag would admit that his strategy in the CBI was a bit unrealistic. Had he not done some of the things he did, he's admitted Mandalay would have been lost. Nothing prevents a human player with knowledge of the AI's necessary shortcomings from exercising a little self-control, which will result in a more realistic game. Do what Frag did, and you bring the bring the curse of an imperfect AI upon yourself. If your honest with yourself, you would admit that you pull many of the nasty tricks you pull against the AI only because you know you can. In that case, an unsatisfying game is self-inflicted.

By the way, Frag, I'm making no moral judgments on your strategy at all. Your game; you play the way you want. I figure you're just experimenting.

[Mr.Frag]

Mr Frag - my concern is the Japanese ships sailing into allied air zones and the high losses incurred so far in your AAR. Comments? Thanks.

Can't really be helped. You can not fly into the storm and assume you will not get hit.

Until you kill the size 3/4 bases, they will continue to hit you. The AI finished killing the last airbase in the SRA a couple of turns ago. It is completely free of aircraft now.

I made it rather tough stopping 2 of the 3 major landings early in the game. This left a lot of ships out of play that would have sped up the suppression of those bases. I put a lot of Japan's suppression ships into dry dock and put a CVL on the bottom along with 2 CA's and 4 CL's and 11 DD's which is pretty much 2 fleets worth of airbase suppressers. Japan is running short about 4 of her suppression fleets right now yet has still managed to kick me out completely. The SRA is gone completely.

I made this task even tougher by mining bases I knew that Japan needed right from turn 1. This again hurt them and ran the clock further.

[brisd]

Mr Frag, thanks for the explanation, makes sense to me![8D] Good job!

[Jaypea]

I hope that the only change they make in Burma is reducing amount of supply that can reach Mandalay from India (via ground transport). That would be historically accurate and not require giving the AI any unfair advantages. Too bad we can't develop new roads/railways etc. That would better match history.

My hats off to MR Frag for a great game so far and I think the AI is doing great against such a well seasoned vet. I don't see any other changes required except whats mentioned above.

JP

[Mr.Frag]

By the way, Frag, I'm making no moral judgments on your strategy at all. Your game; you play the way you want. I figure you're just experimenting.

No worries there [:D]

I'm still looking for bugs. I might be playing and having fun along the way and like everyone else who plays likes to win but the main goal is to find systematic problems.

Just to be clear, *if* Mandalay fell based on what is there and what is left, Japan would be in England before they would stop not to mention that the score would now be very close to automatic victory for Japan. It was a high risk manuever to see if it could be done for future games against Mogami [;)]

I can't remember the exact points breakdown, but loosing 200,000 Allied troops/vehicles/guns is going to put a huge chunk of score on the board. As is, I am almost 7,800 VP in the hole on troop losses.

[Jonny_B]

[8D][font="Times New Roman"][/font]

Byron 13

Now, now Mr. Byron13:

I pray for the day of Witp release, no matter what I might imply to the contrary!
Besides, I plan on never leaving my home for the entire month of July, just playing Witp.

So, who has a life anyway.

And, I plan on playing as the Imperial Japanese. (the underdogs of war)
And when I get really mad at this wonderful war game, I will rule with the Editor.

And Mr. Frag I can only hope to understand and play the game as well as you have demonstrated in the AAR, and your continuous excellent feedback. ( a little butt kissing never hurt)