Not to be overly anal or anything but.......

[Grotius]

Brady, the ad says every "naval unit" and "air unit" is "represented." That's not the same as saying every "ship" and every "plane" is "on the map." In an abstract way, every naval unit is represented. Tugs don't appear on the map, but they're represented. Harbor mine-sweepers don't all appear on the map, but they're represented. Lifeboats don't appear on the map, but they're represented. Training aircraft don't appear on the map, but they're represented.

More to the point, I don't need or want control over every rowboat.

[Brady]

"More to the point, I don't need or want control over every rowboat"

Neither do I, and since the point of abstract representation is well a matter of preception then I gues it is hard to argue, though the absence of the entire russian fleat would a point I would find hard to argue as abstracted, just to sight one example.

But this of course is a pet peave of mine and such defys logic.

[tiredoftryingnames]

I thought this horse was beat down so bad before taht PETA got involved and in the end everyone realized the entire russian fleet represented an insignificant force.

[Mr.Frag]

though the absence of the entire russian fleat would a point I would find hard to argue as abstracted, just to sight one example.

I've asked before and I'll ask again since you don't want to drop this point. Please provide proof that Russia's fleet sortied against anything other then Russia's own bases. While you are at it, please provide proof that the two CA's even had engines as they were towed to their respective ports which makes one wonder...

Two engine-less CA's does not constitute a fleet.

[Onime No Kyo]

I understand you point completely, Frag. But there is a flip side to this coin.

IMHO the excitement over this game is not so much about replaying history but about possibilities. With out 20/20 hindsight, we know how many historical decisions were made from the vantage point of the anal cavity. For me at least, one of the biggest selling points is being able to pull off a daring coup-de-main that the historical forces never had the ability to do or else use forces that were historically wasted in a more productive manner. While the Russian fleet is a moot point, a better example would be Raver's evac of Aussie troops from Singapore.

At the risk of continuing to beat this dead horse to death (thank you Yogi Berra), I think the point must be made again.

[tiredoftryingnames]

I'm all for using forces that were available to do things differently than history. My thing is I haven't seen anything that shows the Russians had a "Fleet" that would challenge anything and change one thing about the outcome. The term fleet gets applied to any group of ships. You can have a fishing fleet, a tug boat fleet and a row boat fleet. Having a fleet of ships doesn't mean you had something to be reckoned with. If we were talking a BB, some CAs supported by CLs and DDs then I'd have been pounding my fist to get them in the game. But as is the Russians are going to sit there until the Japanese player attacks them or they activate late in the game and then those few ships will not be missed. If you don't have enough Allied ships to control by 1945 then you screwed up somewhere along the way and you're going to lose anyway.

[Mr.Frag]

a better example would be Raver's evac of Aussie troops from Singapore.

And that is exactly why there is no restriction on troops in Malaya because it is something that is completely within the realm of possibilities. You could realistically pull troops out. Why? Because there *were* real ships and there *were* real troops.

The Dutch couldn't leave because they really had nowhere to go. The Yanks really didn't understand that they could not hold until help showed up, but the Brits can run and the Ozzies can bail for home.

The game supports this because it should be possible.

[Nikademus]

besides which.....if one REALLY wants to use a Russian LCU to invade an island...what would stop the Allied player from letting the Russian part of his sub-conciousness borrow a few AP's and escorts for the job?

I think in 1945 theres enough to go around [;)]

[tiredoftryingnames]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

besides which.....if one REALLY wants to use a Russian LCU to invade an island...what would stop the Allied player from letting the Russian part of his sub-conciousness borrow a few AP's and escorts for the job?

I think in 1945 theres enough to go around [;)]

Russian Major surveys the landscape...
"Comrade, this is not part of the Japanese home islands I am sure of it."
"I was wondering why it took 3 weeks to get here."
"Those capitalist pigs!"

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

besides which.....if one REALLY wants to use a Russian LCU to invade an island...what would stop the Allied player from letting the Russian part of his sub-conciousness borrow a few AP's and escorts for the job?

I think in 1945 theres enough to go around [;)]

Is this possible, or have they hard coded anything to prevent Soviet units from boarding Allied transports?

[Becket]

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames

I'm all for using forces that were available to do things differently than history. My thing is I haven't seen anything that shows the Russians had a "Fleet" that would challenge anything and change one thing about the outcome. The term fleet gets applied to any group of ships. You can have a fishing fleet, a tug boat fleet and a row boat fleet. Having a fleet of ships doesn't mean you had something to be reckoned with. If we were talking a BB, some CAs supported by CLs and DDs then I'd have been pounding my fist to get them in the game. But as is the Russians are going to sit there until the Japanese player attacks them or they activate late in the game and then those few ships will not be missed. If you don't have enough Allied ships to control by 1945 then you screwed up somewhere along the way and you're going to lose anyway.

Still, I would like the option to simulate a Soviet invasion of Japan, which I think was inevitable had Japan not surrendered. If this is possible using US shipping, then I'm happy.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Brady

I seam to of struck a nerve hear......

Sounds more like a Funny Bone to me.... [;)]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames


Russian Major surveys the landscape...
"Comrade, this is not part of the Japanese home islands I am sure of it."
"I was wondering why it took 3 weeks to get here."
"Those capitalist pigs!"

Comrade Major.....why do you waste time taking useless island.....we ordered you to take Korea and Port Arthur!

GULAG for you!

[tiredoftryingnames]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: tiredoftryingnames


Russian Major surveys the landscape...
"Comrade, this is not part of the Japanese home islands I am sure of it."
"I was wondering why it took 3 weeks to get here."
"Those capitalist pigs!"

Comrade Major.....why do you waste time taking useless island.....we ordered you to take Korea and Port Arthur!

GULAG for you!

"It's those crazy Americans and their practical jokes. We have no ships so they loan us cargo ships with crew. But they took us to some deserted island in the south pacific and left us. Gulag would be better. At least there is food as we brought no supplies since we used the 'Load Only Troops' option."

[Nikademus]

and women Comrade...do not forget island women!

Perhaps better than Gulag no? Gulag women hard and unyielding.......Island women soft and have good dance moves.

[tiredoftryingnames]

Island women? What part of deserted don't you understand? Sergeant take away his vodka.

[Nikademus]

Bah......Crazy Americans thought Okinawa was "deserted" when they landed.....but what they found there weren't Island Women.

Gimmie my vodka bottle back......Have late nite planning session to attend.

[tiredoftryingnames]

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

What about those crocodiles that feasted on all those Japanese soldiers!?[X(] No, really this actually happened. Late in the war, 1945 I think, around 1,000 Japanese soldiers stumbled into a swamp rather than surrender and only a handful came out the other side. The rest were eaten by crocodiles (saltwater, I think....very BIG). I think this was in Borneo, but I'm not sure. Anyone else ever heard of this?

Anyway, the crocs simply MUST be included. Perhaps you could upgrade as you go: alligator--nile croc---saltwater croc....[:'(]

edit: found this on a website (it was near Burma not Borneo[8|]):

A British combat unit had trapped about 1,000 Japanese soldiers on Ramree Island near Burma. Their only escape was through the swamp. The crocodiles, alerted by the din of warfare and the smell of blood, gathered among the mangroves, lying with their eyes above water, watchfully alert for their next meal. With the ebb of the tide, the crocodiles moved in on the dead, wounded, and uninjured men who had become mired in the mud. Their screams continued through the night, and by morning only 20 of the original thousand stumbled out of the swamp to surrender to the British. This was doubtless the most deliberate and wholesale attack on humans by large animals ever recorded.

The ferocious saltwater crocodile has the patience and ability to become almost invisible to an unsuspecting victim. Lying in or near the shores of rivers and lakes with only its eyes above the water, it looks just like a floating log. A thirsty animal who comes to the river to drink will be seized in scarcely an eyeblink. Given the uncanny strength of the reptile, the victim rarely has a chance. It is quickly pulled into the water and held beneath the surface; if the victim had a choice, it would prefer to succumb to drowning before the crocodile begins to snack on the fresh catch. Recently in Australia several people witnessed a 15-foot crocodile grab a very large horse by the hind leg and drag it into the river with very little effort.

Isn't she a beauty...

[Nikademus]

I'll admire her from a distance.....

[Arnir]

Shirley,

There must be tracking of whales so that sub commanders can use them to foil enemy sonar? Also, the ship's boats must also be tracked to account for the number of personnel that can be rescued from destroyed shipping, correct? I also assume that the skill rating of each boat crew is modeled to reflect their ability to rescue survivors.

When USN subs picked up downed pilots, at what point did the extra people on board affect combat performance. Did increased octane affect this point of degredation?

And please don't call me Shurely. I mean surely. [;)]