Generated campaign, AI AT-guns

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:52 pm

I just started a generated campaign, Russians versus Poland, Finland, Rumania, sep 39 - may 41, 20 battles. After the first battle I learned that general Patton was displeased with my performance! Soon it became apparent that I had fallen into some preprogrammed campaign, my units all drew the US flag and german paratroopers started dropping. I have the file saved at the important point if anyone cares. Needless to say this campaign is ruined, and I hardly feel like starting a new one. What is the likelyhood of something like this happening again?

Another thing I noticed too well is that the AI seems to have no idea how to use Anti-tank guns. The old AI in SP1 wasn't too smart, but it placed its AT-guns beutifully. I have bitter memories of running into them. In this battle the AI had bought a lot of AT-guns as part of infantry companies, and simply piled them up in the rear, inside forests with no LOS! Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:52 pm

Originally posted by Penetrator:
I just started a generated campaign, Russians versus Poland, Finland, Rumania, sep 39 - may 41, 20 battles. After the first battle I learned that general Patton was displeased with my performance! Soon it became apparent that I had fallen into some preprogrammed campaign, my units all drew the US flag and german paratroopers started dropping. I have the file saved at the important point if anyone cares. Needless to say this campaign is ruined, and I hardly feel like starting a new one. What is the likelyhood of something like this happening again?

Another thing I noticed too well is that the AI seems to have no idea how to use Anti-tank guns. The old AI in SP1 wasn't too smart, but it placed its AT-guns beutifully. I have bitter memories of running into them. In this battle the AI had bought a lot of AT-guns as part of infantry companies, and simply piled them up in the rear, inside forests with no LOS! Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...

The generated campains are a little unstable when using minor countries. The minors get replaced with majors. Try the WW 2 Campain.

You have not tried the WW2 Campain as the Germans and started in Sept 39 the Poles put those nasty 37 ATGs around the last victory hexes. Sometimes.
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

asgrrr · Post by **asgrrr** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 10:52 pm

Actually, I have now started a new campaign and it seems to be working. Battling the poles, this time they positioned the ATs 5-10 hexes behind the infantry with a good field of view. Not imaginative perhaps, but effective.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 2:30 am

As an interesting side note, the first time I ran into this was when I captured all of the hexes but one and was chasing down some crews that had made it almost to the back row. All of a sudden I ran into about two dozen mg team's with about the same number of AT guns. Clearly not what is typically expected in a setup but more like a second battle I was totally unprepared for. My halftrack and recon units were shreded before I knew what hit me. After my main infantry force walked half the battlefield they were taken but Wow... talk about an interesting/unexpected development.

Larry Smith · Post by **Larry Smith** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:42 pm

I too have noted a tendency for the AI to leave its AT-guns well to the rear in meeting engagements. It just doesn't seem to want to place them well. Or maybe, I am so fearsome an opponent that the AI feels it must defend its retreat route!! (Dream on, Smithy). I recently tried to use the Chlanda Editor to reposition the AI's units, and wound up losing my campaign history (So I started from scratch and ignored the AI's limits)

panda124c · Post by **panda124c** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:13 pm

Originally posted by Laurence Smith:
I too have noted a tendency for the AI to leave its AT-guns well to the rear in meeting engagements. It just doesn't seem to want to place them well. Or maybe, I am so fearsome an opponent that the AI feels it must defend its retreat route!! (Dream on, Smithy). I recently tried to use the Chlanda Editor to reposition the AI's units, and wound up losing my campaign history (So I started from scratch and ignored the AI's limits)

The AI does leave the AT in the rear often however it deploys the forward covering the last set of victory hexes just often enough to make you watch your P&Q's. One thing I have noticed about support weapons is that if you are playing the Germans against the French in 1940 the AI never buys MG's or ATR's and only occasionally an ATG. I tend to play one Infantry Company, one platoon of MG's, and one tank platoon with a couple of ATGs and some AA. The size of the battles may have something to do with the lack of French MG's and ATR's.

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:40 pm

Originally posted by Laurence Smith:
I too have noted a tendency for the AI to leave its AT-guns well to the rear in meeting engagements. It just doesn't seem to want to place them well. Or maybe, I am so fearsome an opponent that the AI feels it must defend its retreat route!! (Dream on, Smithy). I recently tried to use the Chlanda Editor to reposition the AI's units, and wound up losing my campaign history (So I started from scratch and ignored the AI's limits)

Very important for editing campaigns, you can only safely edit right after deploying, if you edit during a battle, you will most likely mess up the count. Although, I just did this the other night with my Bulgarian campaign, I upped their exp. and morale, and nothing detrimental happened, it went right to the next battle no problem, with the correct tally!! This is with the pre-release version 7 though, it seems to have fixed the Minor Campaign problem also!! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Larry Smith · Post by **Larry Smith** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 8:38 pm

I did my editing before deployment. I did retain my units total enemy kills (troops, artillery, soft vehicles, tanks, etc.). What I lost was the campaign score. I didn't notice until after the battle I edited.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Laurence Smith ]

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Laurence Smith ]</p>

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 6:18 pm

The thrust of this thread is that the AIP does not position its ATGs well. With the advent of ver 7, you can have a human buy and setup the AIP side. While you have always been able to do this by editing a saved game as a scenario, now you can do it directly as part of the setup sequence.

So, lets talk tactics. How would you employ your ATGs?

Let me start by enumerating the advantages of ATGs as anti-tank weapon systems vs. SP units (SPATG, tanks, etc.)
- lower silhouette
- better visibility to acquire targets
- not as vulnerable to single shot, catastrophic kills
- can place them in buildings (without becoming immobilized)
- often available in larger caliber than tanks main guns
- they are cheaper than mobile units
- harder to spot than mobile units
- ? others (what do you think)
And the disadvantages:
- cannot quickly move out of harms way (e.g. shoot & scoot)
- cannot move into firing position and immediately start firing
- vulnerable to suppression by arty and small arms
- ? others (what do you think)

OK, now how do we employ them?

In a non-advance (delay, defend, etc.)
- overwatching likely avenues of vehicular advance
- over watching key terrain (e.g. VHs)
- ?
In an advance
- on the flanks, as blocking positions to protect avenues of possible flank attacks on the main force
- behind mobile forces to protect key terrain that has been taken as the mobile forces move on
- behind mobile forces to create a hasty defense in case they run into something that they cannot handle and have to withdraw

In all cases some tactical tips:
- place them with MGs or guns that can suppress direct fire weapons that are trying to suppress the ATGs
- place some smoke grenade carrying infantry that can pop smoke in front of them if they start taking too accurate direct fire (use this similar to tanks smoke dischargers)
- place them in pairs or multiples focused on the same key terrain, this prevents a loss of one ATG from opening up a hole in your defense, also if you have to move one because suppressive fire is becoming too accurate, the other can take over
- Place them overwatching each other thus protecting each other
- Place them behind terrain blocking LOS to the enemy's direction of attack but allowing lateral shots (e.g. behind a hill or building).
- Use reverse slope defense (e.g. have infantry just behind the crest of a hill or ridge then ATGs a few hexes further back, infantry will close assault tanks rolling over the hill top then ATGs can fire on tanks which cannot effectively spot or return fire due to the ~20 suppression from the close attack) (alternately you can use smoke if you lack suitable hills to hide behind)
- Know the 50% probability of hit range and don't fire beyond it
- Employ smoke or terrain to shield ATGs from direct fire that they cannot effectively reply to (e.g. beyond the 50% range)
- Fire at tanks with something else first to cause them to button up
- Don't keep transport stacked with ATGs as they can become suppressed and unable to move the ATGs
- Limit the number of shots taken each turn to remain unspotted (this is hard to specify as it depends upon the defenders terrain, attackers suppression level, exp and spotting abilities, visibility, etc.)

Next how to combat ATGs