The price of entertainment

[young turk]

This post concerns the proposed $60 COTA price.

The standard Matrix explanation conists of: 1. a statement that wargaming is a niche market, and 2. a plea of poverty (we don't make any money, and if you guys don't pay through the nose, we aren't going to make any more games for you).

well, most of my entertainment conists of "niche markets" that don't generate many sales. I listen to a lot of abstract jazz and weird punk rock. These albums don't cost any more than mainstream stuff. I watch a lot of "art" films. The ticket doesn't cost more. I read obscure speculative fiction. The cost of a book is the same as that for bestsellers.

I play wargames. Battlefront's stuff costs $35 or less.

So why exactly, apart from people posting "charge me whatever you want" in these forums, does Matrix need to charge so much more than other publishers?

[Hartford688]

Most of these "niche markets" have different costs.

I would guess that:

Niche music - low costs to produce (recording, producing CDs) moderate distribution costs, little marketing cost, low cash to the artists - but little revenue

Mainstream - high artist costs, high marketing costs, moderate distribution costs - decent revenue

Niche music can survive (more or less) by having lower margins

Books

Niche books - low income to writer, high manufacturing and distribution costs, low revenue - maybe breakeven or better. Plus used as a way to the mainstream.

Bestsellers - decent income to writer, economies of scale on manufacturing and distribution, decent revenue from high volumes

Films- similar to books.

For the software, I would guess:

Matrix - high development costs - several people for many months (or years) lots of testing of intricate code, (by DD) low distribution costs, low revenue (few units sold)

The Sims - high development costs, high distibution costs (CDs and boxes shipped physically) high revenue (loadsa units)

The trouble with the software is...the "niche" option still has high "artist/design" costs...it is not proportionately cheaper for Matrix to design and code the software vs MS or other big software house who have vastly higher sales. The software house has much higher proportion of "fixed" costs vs books and music.

Re Battlefront, good on them. I really like their stuff. BUT...look at CMBB >> CMAK. New OOBs, new units, dust. Like it a lot, bought them both, do not regret it. But fundamentally little difference. SC vs WitP? A little difference in complexity and hence cost, methinks. COTA arguably isn't a vast advance vs HTTR, but Panther Matrix are selling it as having a major upgrade (campaigns). WitP is clearly a mammoth undertaking. Notably Battlefront primarily also ship direct rather than retail, and have cut the hard copy manuals too. They must be feeling squeezed also. HPS sell at $50-$60. Schwerpunkt are not noticeably cheaper, and have the overheads of one tiny company. Result is one game every 4 years and I doubt Ron Dockal drives a Ferrari (good luck to him if he does).

Clearly all the above is my guess, as I am a finance guy in equipment leasing, not movies, books or music.

Up to you. If you think it is worth it, buy it. If not, vote with your $. I'll look at what is developed and if it is something really good I'll probably pay for it. If it is nothing original I will not. I still feel that given how much time I get out of the software it is still excellent value for money. I still love seeing the moans on the IL2:FB forums as to costs of expansion packs (say $30) followed by the endless threads on the incredible $2,000-$3,000 rigs people are buying. I sling my $ at the software I enjoy playing, and have had a PIII 800 for 4 years now. I am confident Intel and Dell will survive, but I am more worried about Matrix, HPS, Schwerpunkt and Battlefront. If they go, that's my hobby snookered.

[Arjuna]

Hartford688,

Spot on!

[wodin]

Most games in the Uk are betwwen 29.99 and 35.99.

I believe when you buy a game that your going to play for many hours you cant get better entertianment for the price.

People pay 49.99 for a console shooter with 20 hours gameplay.

I will not complain paying upto 45.00 even for a wargame which has lots of detial and gameplay and were I will get well over 50 hours of play. More like 100 hours of play which is less than 50 pence an hour.

What else gives value for money like this?

[EricGuitarJames]

What I found with the 'Combat Mission' games was that you play a scenario once and, unless you completely foul up, you don't want to replay it. With HTTR, there are so many ways to play each scenario that you want to go back again and again. So 'out of the box' I'd say HTTR offers better value than any of the 'Combat Mission' series. Countering this, there is a large CM community offering scenarios to download but then it's had some five years to develop unlike HTTR.

[petdoc]

I for one am getting a bit tired of this ongoing 'discussion' about the cost of COTA. I too own my own business, so I often encounter some of the same 'discussions'. Panther 'owes' us nothing. They are a business, they have employees to pay, families to support, expenses. Only they know their financial situation. They are not at CEO level salaries, they are not sleeping in beds of 100 dllar bills (well I hope not). They are extremely talented at what they do and as such should get paid very well for what they do (as should anyone who is at the top of their field). I mean, how many of us could say that we are at the top of our field 'in the world'? Right now I think that Panther is making the best wargames available (and Matrix is publishing the best). I'll even bet Panther is making a lot less than they deserve! So, in closing, it is an entertainment product, and a free market. If its overpriced, the market will let them know, but if the product is priced appropriately (as I obviously think it is), they will be rewarded. Its a game, not some new lifesaving drug that is being sold by Pfizer at 5200.00 a pop. Go for it Panther, I wish you all the luck and prosperity you can get, Kevin.

[Cap Mandrake]

Yeah...Yeah...Yeah....its not like there is a wargame entitlement or something? [:)]

[Mr.Frag]

I play wargames. Battlefront's stuff costs $35 or less.

Um, not to point out the Obvious, but Battlefront's CMBB/AK *IS* $60.

[Mr.Frag]

While on the topic, I see Doom 3 is $54.99

Now you want to complain about a war game costing $5 more then a FPS shooter???

[benpark]

I'm of the opinion that $60-70.00 is tops for any computer game. (I may make an exception for something like a battalion level game covering the entire Eastern Front WW2, with an option to resolve combats at the tac level...[8D]). So far, Matrix is cool by me with prices.

In all fairness to the poster that initially raised the issue with the price increases-it might be a good idea for Matrix to give an explanation as to why, after the $ saving "download only" policy change, prices have increased by around $10 per game. Might save some grief in terms of first time buyers of Matrix products who aren't aware of the level of product yet!

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: petdoc

So, in closing, it is an entertainment product, and a free market. If its overpriced, the market will let them know, but if the product is priced appropriately (as I obviously think it is), they will be rewarded. Its a game, not some new lifesaving drug that is being sold by Pfizer at 5200.00 a pop. Go for it Panther, I wish you all the luck and prosperity you can get, Kevin.

In all fairness, if COTA is overpriced then we could well see Panther disappear (Matrix would survive in all probability) and that's what we don't want. Voicing of concerns over 'value for money' etc. here gives Panther and Matrix a good idea of what they need to do to convince us that the game is worth buying. Cheap 'market research' for them.

[:)]

[MarkShot]

I am encouraged by all the pledges of support for higher prices for future games.

I think I will approach Dave later this week about renegotiating my beta-testing contract for 2005.

Speaking of "entitlement", it's time beta testers start receiving health care benefits and paid vacations. I find it really exploitive that developers think they can get your hard work just for a free copy of the game and getting your name in the credits!

[SeaMonkey]

Get Real!! You can't take it with you. Aside from providing the necessities of life, what is money for? The hours of peace and quiet(turn off the sound), the escape from a hectic day/life, the intellectual stimulation, it is invaluable.....for everything else there is Mastercard.[:)] Look at your library, what is the return on value? Look at HttR, a single literary endeavor, with a storyline that constantly changes, outcomes unpredictable and you get to interact with the book or rewrite it, over and over again. Nuff said!

[rwatson]

Let me see HTTR game $50--Strategy Guide download $15---Printing strategy guide at Kinko's $20---Hours of being totally lost on the Highway to the Reich---PRICELESS!!!!

[CriticalMass]

this post from the Fighter Ops Forum (The Falcon is dead long live the FOps???) has an interesting take on pricing (and even more so on "affordable" demos)

http://fighterops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14900&postcount=19

this post is from one of the production team, but the whole thread is quite interesting

TANX
Andrew

[young turk]

cmbb/ak is 2 games. if they sell cota/httr for $60 than it is the same pricing scale.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

While on the topic, I see Doom 3 is $54.99

Now you want to complain about a war game costing $5 more then a FPS shooter???

id software knows people will pay it.
Plus the game was the most expensive PC game ever produced.

[Miller Logan]

cmbb/ak is 2 games. if they sell cota/httr for $60 than it is the same pricing scale.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong about this but I belive CMBB and CMAK were more than the current $35 when released.

[EricGuitarJames]

When CMAK was released in the UK it was priced around 66% of standard game price. But then it was little more than an expansion-pack for CMBB and was priced accordingly. COTA promises to be a lot more than that and so justifies a higher price on that level.

[Moose 4075]

CMBB was at least, but I think CMAK is at its initial price. It's been awhile since I've bought it though.

Honestly, I think the new prices are starting to push the boundaries, but I don't think that they've gone beyond them yet.