How many copies have been sold??

[Pier5]

Actually, I think they had some walk-by sales at origins, which is more what I had in mind.

Pier5

[kaleun]

I meant walk by as in Electronics Boutique "Oh that looks interesting, I'll buy it"
I would expect some walk by sales at Origins; that's where the future grogs are.

[SirRodneyOfGout]

Zoomie, I've been in the software development biz too, as a db programmer then team lead then project manager. There are differences between game development and application development, big differences. I'd suggest reading Game Developer mag, or checking out the gamasutra site, to get some more insight. I'd bet there are a lot of pms in the game development biz who would not take kindly to your suggestion theyre doing something wrong!

Probabaly the biggest difference lies in testing. App development testing is relatively straightforward compared to game testing. Its apparent when things work and don't work. But in games its always a design vs development issue - do we spend X months rewriting code just so the loss rates in 1944 are 'historical' enough?

WiTP probably isn't the best model to look at anyway. It is a very large, very particular game. Look at the struggle it took to take an already proven engine, UV, and s-t-r-e-t-c-h it to fit in the entire PTO. And now that you have it, what else can you do with it? There is no way to reuse this to model any other conflict without serious redevelopment.

Tiller's game factory smacks of OO development. But some would say, akin to the old argument about SPI, that every game tastes the same. I'm not a fan of his work because I don't like some of his design choices - I think he abstracts too much when he he is producing for a grognard market anyway. But thats a matter of taste. He does pop games out on a regular basis, and I'm sure is very comfortable doing so.

As for the SQL db, I've always wondered about that. But the first thing to consider is that youre going to have to pay a licensing fee to someone else, out of your own pocket and up front, if youre going to buy one and base your game on it. And it had better do EVERYTHING your programmers want it to do, or theyre going to be handcoding their own db in no time flat (gotta herd those cats!). A db engine will only work for a turn based game, because no matter how good a system anyone has the storage read/writes will be way slower than data structures in memory.

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I ask because I'd kind of like to know if this is a worthwhile financial venture for me to ever get in to? Do you people make any REAL money at all??

ZOOMIE,

If money was the driving force behind wargame design, there wouldn't be any wargames. [X(] I think the most popular PC title sold in the last 10 years was Century of Warfare (I was a scenario designer on a few of the titles), it outsold any previous wargame by several times what is normally expected. It was available in stores and in most countries around the globe and it sold about 100,000 copies at best when all was said and done.

WitP is only available online and there wont be the thousands of impulse buys generated at the tens of thousands of game stores around the world simply because someone sees it and says "hey this looks cool", there won't be dozens of feature articles in any gaming mags either that would steer readers to this site, so at best they'll probably sell 5,000 - 10,000 copies if word of mouth generates a decent interest in the title.

Given the number of people involved in the development and the number of years of work put into the title, I think we all owe Matrix and 2X3 a debt of gratitude [&o] for bringing this game to our PC's. Personally I intend to buy two copies and I've been working on my brother to try and get him interested. Unfortunately he doesn't like games that make him think so much, he'd rather get lost in mindless fun when he games. I'm not giving up on him yet however. [;)]

So in answer to your question, you'll not make much money if you start designing wargames. In fact you'll be lucky to break even. How many wargame companies last more than 5 or 10 years in business? None that I can think of, hopefully Matrix can break that trend.

Jim

I beg to differ. You were one of THE Scenario Designers. Bulge and Overlord were magnificent. [&o]

Regards,
IronDuke

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: SirRodneyOfGout

As for the SQL db, I've always wondered about that. But the first thing to consider is that youre going to have to pay a licensing fee to someone else, out of your own pocket and up front, if youre going to buy one and base your game on it. And it had better do EVERYTHING your programmers want it to do, or theyre going to be handcoding their own db in no time flat (gotta herd those cats!). A db engine will only work for a turn based game, because no matter how good a system anyone has the storage read/writes will be way slower than data structures in memory.

There is at least one database on the market that offers a runtime package that can be included free of charge. Sybase's iAnywhere product has (had? haven't looked in a while) a runtime engine. The limitation on the runtime engine was simply that it was a single user database and you could not use 'create table' and a few other commands. You had to have a full use copy to create the db and distribute the db and runtime engine.

iAnywhere was previously know as Watcom SQL and SQL Anywhere. I am sure it will have another name soon enough, but the technology is the same. In any case, it would easily handle the storage requirements of a game like WitP.

[UncleBuck]

All I know is that I want a copy. I love UV and can't wait to get into the longer campaigns. I will buy a copy as soon as it is available. I also liekthe idea of downloading it, and not dealing with a CD. I can burn teh game to a CD so it makes re-install quicker but still use the Serial Number.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: SirRodneyOfGout

Zoomie, I've been in the software development biz too, as a db programmer then team lead then project manager. There are differences between game development and application development, big differences. I'd suggest reading Game Developer mag, or checking out the gamasutra site, to get some more insight. I'd bet there are a lot of pms in the game development biz who would not take kindly to your suggestion theyre doing something wrong!

Probabaly the biggest difference lies in testing. App development testing is relatively straightforward compared to game testing. Its apparent when things work and don't work. But in games its always a design vs development issue - do we spend X months rewriting code just so the loss rates in 1944 are 'historical' enough?

WiTP probably isn't the best model to look at anyway. It is a very large, very particular game. Look at the struggle it took to take an already proven engine, UV, and s-t-r-e-t-c-h it to fit in the entire PTO. And now that you have it, what else can you do with it? There is no way to reuse this to model any other conflict without serious redevelopment.

Tiller's game factory smacks of OO development. But some would say, akin to the old argument about SPI, that every game tastes the same. I'm not a fan of his work because I don't like some of his design choices - I think he abstracts too much when he he is producing for a grognard market anyway. But thats a matter of taste. He does pop games out on a regular basis, and I'm sure is very comfortable doing so.

As for the SQL db, I've always wondered about that. But the first thing to consider is that youre going to have to pay a licensing fee to someone else, out of your own pocket and up front, if youre going to buy one and base your game on it. And it had better do EVERYTHING your programmers want it to do, or theyre going to be handcoding their own db in no time flat (gotta herd those cats!). A db engine will only work for a turn based game, because no matter how good a system anyone has the storage read/writes will be way slower than data structures in memory.

MySQL. GPL license and so on... I also have a fairly robust home-grown SQL database engine of my own. Just becasue games are based on reusable objects does in no way mean they all look and feel the same. And a game like WitP is PERFECTLY suited for a deep inheritance object design, incorporating dynamic container data manipulation and a relational data management system where the rules of the game are contained in the database constraints. I'd bet my mortgage on it.

[Spooky]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

MySQL. GPL license and so on... I also have a fairly robust home-grown SQL database engine of my own. Just becasue games are based on reusable objects does in no way mean they all look and feel the same. And a game like WitP is PERFECTLY suited for a deep inheritance object design, incorporating dynamic container data manipulation and a relational data management system where the rules of the game are contained in the database constraints. I'd bet my mortgage on it.

The MySQL license is only GPL for non-commercial products otherwise there are some royalties to pay. However, Postgres (another well-known SQL Engine) uses the BSD license and so could be used as a SQL engine in commercial games such as UV or WITP

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Spooky

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

MySQL. GPL license and so on... I also have a fairly robust home-grown SQL database engine of my own. Just becasue games are based on reusable objects does in no way mean they all look and feel the same. And a game like WitP is PERFECTLY suited for a deep inheritance object design, incorporating dynamic container data manipulation and a relational data management system where the rules of the game are contained in the database constraints. I'd bet my mortgage on it.

The MySQL license is only GPL for non-commercial products otherwise there are some royalties to pay. However, Postgres (another well-known SQL Engine) uses the BSD license and so could be used as a SQL engine in commercial games such as UV or WITP

Yea Postgres is a good one. Has all the bells and whistles and a completely open license.

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Just interested if you managed to expand your customer base any with that kind of exposure.

The giant game box banners we had hoisted up high so you could see them from anywhere in teh exhibiters hall helped too!

Whoever came up with that idea should get a fruit basket.

I don't think you'll fit in the mail box to send... [:'(]

[ravinhood]

Wow that's amazing projecting only 10,000 copies when the developer over at Slitherene stated that over 100,000 copies of LEGION sold overall. And that game SUCKED lol Well not totally sucked, but, I didn't like many of the things in it and passed on Chariots of War, but, bought SPARTAN cause they fixed the flaws of the previous two.

But, then again, I've been saying all along, get away from WWII and copycat games and you can make money. The Ancients era has been totally overlooked for many years and there must be a chitload of Ancients gamers for LEGION to sell over 100,000 copies.

I'd have to say Grigsby makes some of the most colossal and complex games I've ever played, but, by the same token that's what makes his market a really really really small niche market, because of their complexity. Can you imagine a newbie to wargaming playing the likes of WitP as his very first game?

When I see the name Grigbsy on the game box, all of a sudden I remember my days in accounting class in college! heh Numbers, numbers, numbers and more numbers.

Having been a gamer, and not just a wargamer for 35 years, I've come to at least feel I know what the majority of your average joe's like out there. It includes this phrase "fast satisfaction and entertainment", blame it on McDonalds, when they presented fast food to us, it's like the whole world took on a new meaning of living and gaming entertainment became the same, give it too us fast, give it to us simple and don't forget the ketsup and the salt n pepper.

Don't get me wrong, every once in a great while I like a really complicated, colossal gaming experience, but, that's not often. The majority of the time I would prefer a good (4) hour gaming experience, and entertainment satisfaction. I have to believe the majority of your gaming joe's out there also do the same. I've lived too many places, met too many different types of people not to find this particular attitude toward gaming to be the norm.

Oh and as far as MY idea (hehe) for a computer wargame in a magazine subscription rate, if they used the same engine over and over and a game came out every 3 or 4 months I feel around $125 for a years subscription is a fair price. As far as S&T went I spent like $96 a year for the history moreso than I did the games themselves. I recently saw on ebay the Ancients publications of S&T are selling quite high, one even as high as $60 unpunched.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Wow that's amazing projecting only 10,000 copies when the developer over at Slitherene stated that over 100,000 copies of LEGION sold overall. And that game SUCKED lol Well not totally sucked, but, I didn't like many of the things in it and passed on Chariots of War, but, bought SPARTAN cause they fixed the flaws of the previous two.

But, then again, I've been saying all along, get away from WWII and copycat games and you can make money. The Ancients era has been totally overlooked for many years and there must be a chitload of Ancients gamers for LEGION to sell over 100,000 copies.

I don't think it's the era as much as the depth and complexity of the game. Many past WWII games have sold quite well when they were sufficiently abstracted and simple to learn. Most of the old QQP games were WWII themed and they sold quite well, but I'd categorize them as strategy games not so much historical wargames.

In fairness Legions is a rather simplistic RTS game (relatively speaking) with an historical theme, and is very simple to learn and play, so it doesn't surprise me that the game sold that many copies. When you have some of the brightest minds on this board stating they plan to spend 100 hours or more developing their strategies for Japan, how do you suppose a newbie to this board feels? I'd bet he/she says to themselves "Dang! [X(], no thanks I'll pass ".

I'm not saying we shouldn't be making posts like that, simply that it's what makes our brand of wargames so unique. We love the depth and complexity , the more time we spend in deep thought and reflextion, the more fun we are having. Most gamers lack the attention span for these kind of games [>:]. Just my opinion of course.

Jim

[Didz]

ORIGINAL: jnier
I think people care because they hope this game will turn a profit and they want see Matrix stay in business.

I'm always curious because I'm interested in how many people there are out there playing the same game I am. And because its re-assuring to know I'm part of a large community of fellow players and no just a sad old bastard playing boring games. Which is what my son thinks[;)]

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

Just interested if you managed to expand your customer base any with that kind of exposure.

A lot of buyers had never been to our website so yes - I think we got a significant amount of exposure to new parts of the customer base.

The giant game box banners we had hoisted up high so you could see them from anywhere in teh exhibiters hall helped too!

Matrix had the best booth around when you consider visibility and personnel. As Paul said - you could see the banners from anywhere in the exhibit hall. Also they had monitors mounted high on poles so you did not have to crowd around a laptop to see a demo and these demos could easily attract passers by. The personnel were the best part - friendly, willing to demo any of the products and willing to talk about the games as long as you wanted to talk (except for Marc who always had his nose in his laptop, keeping the place running I guess).

[SirRodneyOfGout]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I'd bet my mortgage on it.

And probably NOT lose it. Tiller is definitely making money doing what he does, or he would not still be doing it. Youre right, an OO approach doesn't have to mean the same game over and over, but since one of the strengths of OO is reusability, and it is relatively easy to take the same engine, tweek it slightly and put in different data and map - well, then presto, without working up too much of a sweat you can pump out games on a regular basis - but very similar games. The temptation to go down this road, to sell new titles, good or bad, on a regular basis just to keep cash flowing in, is going to be strong.

(and BTW, is perfectly acceptable when the engine really works well to model the conflict. I'm a big fan of the Battleground series of Civ War battles, so I'm not completely anti -Tiller ).

A lot of wargames are produced by one-man shows (although inevitably there is more than just one person involved) - Norm Koger, Hubert Carter, Frank Hunter, etc. Its more like an artisan approach than an assembly line. And their 'fans' appreciate the effort, the attention to particularism that these guys put into their games. (and along this line, why shouldn't Matrix charge 70$ for Grigsby's magnum opus - its his most ambitious work, after all).

Anyway, more power to you. We can always use more wargame developers, can't we? Now let me suggest some titles...[:)]

[Didz]

His Napoleonic games suck big time though.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Didz

His Napoleonic games suck big time though.

AMEN! Talk about some wasted opportunities....

[Grotius]

Actually, I think they had some walk-by sales at origins

I understand why Matrix has ditched the retail channel for WiTP: purchase money will now go directly to the company, not to middlemen. If that's the best business decision for Matrix, then I have no quarrel with it. I'd certainly rather pay Matrix than Electronics Boutique.

But won't Matrix always wonder if it had a sleeper "hit" on its hands, one that might attract many more walk-by sales than they anticipate? Yes, WiTP is incredibly complex, but there may be a bigger market for complexity than we know. I'm not saying they could sell anywhere near as many units as, say, the "Civilization" series, but turn-based fare does have its place in retail stores. Maybe WiTP could hit the retail shelves in a few months or so, after sales to us diehards have slowed down?

[Marc von Martial]

(except for Marc who always had his nose in his laptop, keeping the place running I guess).

That and taking care of a constant supply of WITP CDs [:D]

The problem is that David keeps me so busy at times that it would be a bad idea to let me demo the games, I couldn´t tell you much except for graphics [;)]


Glad you liked the booth and service.

[freeboy]

Hey marc.. this game looks awesome.. any clue if we can buy it today.. I have the day off and will be getting something else to play with if its not...