I see that in the game Guam is a freebie for the Japanese as it is completely empty why???

[Tanaka]

The Japanese lost over 200 men trying to take this island. Yes they outnumbered the americans about 5000 to 500 but it wasnt just a free ride. Yes it should be easy for the Japanese to take but there should be an American representation here and not just emptiness.

The Americans suffered about 20 killed and 40 wounded. Plus hundreds of POW's.

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The Japanese lost over 200 men trying to take this island. Yes they outnumbered the americans about 5000 to 500 but it wasnt just a cakewalk. Yes it should be easy for the Japanese to take but there should be an American representation here and not just emptiness.

The Americans suffered about 20 killed and 40 wounded. Plus hundreds of POW's.

I think they have no actual units on Guam so it doesn't turn into what is happening to me on Wake Island. I can't kill the damn Marines - my historical unit is beat up and depleted. Now I'm gonna have to send in more men - disrupting my timetable elsewhere - PLUS, I don't know where the Allied CVs are - so they may never make it there.

I personally think Wake shouldn't be this tough either, but oh well.

Xargun

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The Japanese lost over 200 men trying to take this island. Yes they outnumbered the americans about 5000 to 500 but it wasnt just a cakewalk. Yes it should be easy for the Japanese to take but there should be an American representation here and not just emptiness.

The Americans suffered about 20 killed and 40 wounded. Plus hundreds of POW's.

200 men lost. What is your source ? It seems to me that in the last US publications, using Japanese documents now available, Japanese losses are shown as one killed and 6 wounded, that is far more consistent with the short fighting described in most sources.

See this webpage: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... ew=extract

[pry]

American resistance on Guam lasted 20-25 minutes on December 10, 1941, and by anyone's definition can be called a "Give Me" to the Japanese.

Just landing on the empty Guam hex will cause the Japanese more casualities from disruption and accidents then they suffered in the historical landings. The term cakewalk covers it rather well.

[GBirkn]

Wake's a coin toss. Some times it falls on day 1, sometimes it holds out. This is good, I wouldn't want the opening of the game to be too predictable.

[hithere]

I saw a special on the History chan last month that said that the Marines acually beat back the fist wave even before they landed at Wake. Sinking a least 1 destroyer and i think a CL (by air attack) The Japanese had to send another force and the 1st assualt was defeated before the Marines relized that this would just keep happening till they ran out of ammo, food, etc.

[kaleun]

Correct; that agrees with my sources too. The Japanese had to try twice.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Correct; that agrees with my sources too. The Japanese had to try twice.

That's for Wake. The thread starter was talking about Guam, which was a cakewalk, in the game and in history.

[Cherper]

Guam just wasn't that well defended. Wake did a much better job of holding up the Japanese.

[hithere]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: kaleun

Correct; that agrees with my sources too. The Japanese had to try twice.

That's for Wake. The thread starter was talking about Guam, which was a cakewalk, in the game and in history.

Acually I should have had a part 2. What I was wondering is if Tanaka was getting the 2 flip flopped...the "lost over 200 men trying to take this island. Yes they outnumbered the americans about 5000 to 500" statement sounds very close to the battle for Wake, not Guam.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The Japanese lost over 200 men trying to take this island. Yes they outnumbered the americans about 5000 to 500 but it wasnt just a cakewalk. Yes it should be easy for the Japanese to take but there should be an American representation here and not just emptiness.

The Americans suffered about 20 killed and 40 wounded. Plus hundreds of POW's.

Hmmm...here are the sites I found on the net.

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:nU ... 1941&hl=en

"The island of Guam was the first Allied territory lost to the Japanese onslaught in 1941. On 10 December 5,000 Japanese troops landed on Guam, defended by less than 500 US and Guamanian troops, the outcome was beyond doubt."


http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:jq ... 1941&hl=en

"According to the book titled “Occupation/Invasion 1941-1944,” written and compiled by Historian Pedro C. Sanchez in 1979, several houses and stores in Agana — now known as Hagåtña — were badly damaged during the attack. The island was forced to submit to the Japanese army after roughly 6,000 Japanese soldiers stormed the island and captured the100-man insular force guard and 125 Marines at the Navy-Marine barracks. The Japanese soldiers outnumbered the island’s forces and had control within six hours from the beginning of the attack.

At sundown, exactly 5:45 p.m. on Dec. 10, the Japanese army had officially taken rule of the island after repeatedly bombing the island for three days. Immediately after the attacks were concluded, Japanese soldiers then forced Guam’s Governor/Commandant McMillin, a U.S. Navy captain, to remove his trousers and coat as a sign of surrender.

As a result of the invasion, according to Sanchez’s records, 13 U.S. Navy and Marine Corps officers and men were killed, including an American civilian and four members of the insular force guard. The records also indicate that 30 to 40 Chamorro civilians were killed, while 37 U.S. Navy and Marine Corps officers were wounded during the invasion."




http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/gu ... plaza.html


"Also known as Susanna Plaza, it was the scene of the only battle to occur in the Japanese seizure of Guam, just before dawn, Wednesday, 10 December 1941. During this battle, the bombing for the previous two days and the landing on the beaches, 17 American military men and Guamanian Insular Guard men died. Over 200 Japanese were to die in the short battle on the plaza. Most of the Japanese entered the plaza from the north and northwest, the last shots being fired from behind the Government House."


An interesting story: This site says the battle took 2 days and there were 700 defending.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:yo ... lled&hl=en

"The largest weapons on Guam were .30 caliber machine guns and only 700 marines and sailors were stationed there. On December 10, 1941, Guam was hit by a landing force of 6,000 Japanese troops. In just two days, the defenders were overrun and almost out of ammunition. Of course, many of them had also been killed, so the survivors decided to surrender."

[hithere]

that was a very interesting article and I stand corrected. My ex-wife was from Guam, her parents really did not like american's much, but the japanese less. i guess as far as americans, a few bad apples can spoil the rest...or something like that

[McNaughton]

I highly doubt that 200 Japanese died in that engagement, and only 17 US/Guam soldiers died. The US were barely able to get such drastically high casualty odds even with heavy artillery support, and they had none on Guam.

I got this:
"The principal engagement took place on Agaña’s Plaza de Espana, beginning at 04.45hrs, between a few marines and Insular Force Guardsmen on one side and the SNLF on the other. After token resistance a ceasefire was called at 05.45hrs and the Governor surrendered at 06.00, 10 December, making Guam the first piece of American territory to fall into Japanese hands."

from this site. Token resistance would NOT mean 200 dead Japanese... Numbers were probably inflated post-war for propaganda purposes.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... ew=extract

[gunnergoz]

ORIGINAL: McNaughton

I highly doubt that 200 Japanese died in that engagement, and only 17 US/Guam soldiers died. The US were barely able to get such drastically high casualty odds even with heavy artillery support, and they had none on Guam.

I got this:
"The principal engagement took place on Agaña’s Plaza de Espana, beginning at 04.45hrs, between a few marines and Insular Force Guardsmen on one side and the SNLF on the other. After token resistance a ceasefire was called at 05.45hrs and the Governor surrendered at 06.00, 10 December, making Guam the first piece of American territory to fall into Japanese hands."

from this site. Token resistance would NOT mean 200 dead Japanese... Numbers were probably inflated post-war for propaganda purposes.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... ew=extract

I concur, except that the time for propaganda was during the war, not post-war. Post war casualty assessment errors were sloppy or incomplete scholarship and research.

[McNaughton]

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz

ORIGINAL: McNaughton

I highly doubt that 200 Japanese died in that engagement, and only 17 US/Guam soldiers died. The US were barely able to get such drastically high casualty odds even with heavy artillery support, and they had none on Guam.

I got this:
"The principal engagement took place on Agaña’s Plaza de Espana, beginning at 04.45hrs, between a few marines and Insular Force Guardsmen on one side and the SNLF on the other. After token resistance a ceasefire was called at 05.45hrs and the Governor surrendered at 06.00, 10 December, making Guam the first piece of American territory to fall into Japanese hands."

from this site. Token resistance would NOT mean 200 dead Japanese... Numbers were probably inflated post-war for propaganda purposes.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_d ... ew=extract

I concur, except that the time for propaganda was during the war, not post-war. Post war casualty assessment errors were sloppy or incomplete scholarship and research.

I don't know, think about post-war tourism. Would the place be as popular if the story was "an inconclusive battle with little casualties on both sides resulting in an armistice" or an "Alamo 2 happened here"?

[Tanaka]

Im not denying that it was very easy for the Japanese to take Guam but we should all agree that there was an American and Guamanian military and support presence here. The island was not completely empty.

[brisd]

While stationed at Guam in 1995 I saw memorials to the US Marines who died in the invasion of '41. I don't recall the numbers involved but that it was over quickly and not much of a fight. If WITP had every company of men at every base accounted for then we'd be waiting for WITP as long as we have "Pacific Tide"...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: brisd

While stationed at Guam in 1995 I saw memorials to the US Marines who died in the invasion of '41. I don't recall the numbers involved but that it was over quickly and not much of a fight. If WITP had every company of men at every base accounted for then we'd be waiting for WITP as long as we have "Pacific Tide"...

I understand what you are saying and Im not asking for every company of men at every base but I do think some of the MAJOR HISTORICAL bases should not be left completely empty when historically there was a military and support presence there.

http://www.pacificislandtravel.com/micr ... story.html

"Assigned to protect its 20,000 natives and its 228 square miles of rugged, jungled terrain was a token force of 153 Marines. Backing them up was a Guamanian infantry unit, the 80-man Insular Force Guard, and a volunteer native naval militia with 246 ill-armed and ill-trained members. The island's government departments and naval station activities were manned by 271 regular Navy personnel. A naval officer, Captain George J. McMillin, was both island governor and garrison commander.


The initial enemy target was the mine sweeper USS Penguin in Apra Harbor; this small ship's 3-inch and .50 caliber guns were the only weapons larger than .30 caliber machine guns available to the Guam garrison. Under repeated attacks, the Penguin went to the bottom, and her survivors joined the forces ashore. The attack continued throughout the daylight hours with flights of bombers hitting the various naval installations and strafing roads and villages. The island capital, Agana, was cleared of civilians, and the few local Japanese were rounded up and interned. "


I do believe this ship is represented in the game so why not the base forces there???