Flanking attacks on static defensive lines?

[MarkShot]

This is kind of a meandering post, but here goes ...

Well, as a result of meeting Bil (another beta tester), Dave and Paul (the creators which we hold in awe and reverance) in Gettysburg, I started getting interested in USA Civil War era combat.

So, this morning, I ordered the Sid Meier Civil War Collection (Gettysburg, Anteitem + South Mountain). By the way, there is still quite a bit a of useful information about these games on the Net. Sadly, all the mod (graphics, sounds, and scenario) links are dead. {So, if anyone has a collection of files for these games, then please let me know.}

Today, I have been reading some of the information which I downloaded about SMG/SMA/SMSM while waiting for the my CD. A key consideration of conflict of the times was to achieve a flanking attack against your enemy's line formation.

Of course, this got me thinking, since the same benefits would seem to acrue in WWII combat in the HTTR environment.

On defense, I have very frequently used line formations. I am not quite sure what the AI does on defense.

On the attack, I have attacked from different axis'. However, these attacks are mainly predicated on complicating the enemy's defense and stressing the defense from two different directions. Although my attacks may have rolled up an enemy's line and defeated it in detail, it was not planned and I am unaware if I have achieved such an effect.

Now, I have clearly planned and executed spoiling flanking attacks into an enemy's main attack on my position. But I have not planned and executed flanking attacks on the enemy's static line, at least, that I know of.

I have also harassed the enemy's flanks during an attack with heavy weapons fire, but not actually attacked.

So, how can you recognize that the enemy has established a defensive line in HTTR?

Have you executed flanking attacks against a static defensive line?

What technique have you used for the above? Any thoughts about the results?

By the way, has anyone noticed the AI making flanking attacks against a line? I cannot say that I have. It usually tends to either attack against the line, bypass, or look for breachs in the line.

Thanks.

[Golf33]

Well, it's often quite hard to make a perfect flanking attack against a defended line, because the enemy is not usually dozy enough to set up a defended line with no depth and its flanks in the air. Usually you'll find a position set up for all-round protection, with as much mutual support between positions as possible, and with a good amount of depth. This makes it hard to isolate a part of the position for a flanking attack (since your FUP or approach will be under fire from another part of the position), and even if you can isolate part of the forward line and flank it, the flank of your attack will be exposed to enfilade fire from the depth positions. So it's fairly infrequent that the situation will arise at all.

Regards
33

[Bil H]

SOP for almost every Western style Army is to not attack frontally.

HTTR is very good at attacking from the front... in reality a force would take an enemy position under fire from the front from a distance seeking to pin the enemy... then it would maneuver the majority of its force in either a turning movement or more rarely an envelopment. A force will attack frontally is when it is seeking to pin down an enemy force as a diversion, or when acting as a base of fire (fixing element) for the maneuver force. Another reason a force might attack frontally will be when a penetration is required... this is used to create a flank for a turning movement or an envelopment. BTW, this SOP goes from the Platoon level all the way to Army level.

So Mark, to attack from a flank is SOP for almost every Army. If you are presented with a line that does not present a flank, then you have to create it with a penetration (or breakthrough) attack (attack along a narrow frontage) and then attack the newly created flank or rear as the opportunity presents itself. You have to be careful not to get your breakthough force cut off though... as happened many times, especially in Russia. The follow-on forces have to be very close to the breakthrough force to take advantage of any potential success and to protect the lines of communication.

As Steve says, this is not an easy task (nor should it be)... and there are a great many things to keep in mind (as so eloquently outlined by Steve), however, it is how it was and is done. More rare these days, is such an uninterrupted defensive line. Mobile warfare will present many flanks for you to attack.

Bil

[Willard]

Mark-

I used to be a big time Sid Meier's Gettysburg fan and player.
I am at work right now, but I have some files at home that I can email you.
Additionally, I have good links for game scenarios and mods still on the net.

Couple of quick questions-

Did you purchase the SM Gettysburg/Antietam Civil War collection cd-rom?
If so, DO NOT patch with anything other than than the Win 2000/XP fix on the Firaxis website (and only if you have Win 2000/XP). The other patches are for the standalone versions of SMG and SMA (meaning you have 2 separate disks for those games). Additionally, there are known problems with the sound files for SMA (either the stand alone or CWC) when running Win ME. There are no fixes other than turning off the sound. You will know if you have a problem if the SMA sound effects sound like a scratchy record. SMG sound should work fine.

When installing mods and scenarios, be careful as there are two different types of mod/scenario packs. The first scenario packs can be just added into the scenario folder. Be careful, as the scenarios are numbered sequentially. The default scenarios should be numbered something like 1-25. Any other scenarios should be higher than that number or they will overwrite the pre-existing scenarios.

The second type of scenario will overwrite your SMG or SMA files completely to mod your game ala for Revolutionary or Napaleonic warfare mods. Check the readme files first.

Additionally, the great majority of scenarios are only for SMG. You cannot use them for SMA. There are a limited number of SMA files available so you can use the SMA program to run a Gettysburg or whatever battle scenario. If you want, I can email you these with instructions on installation.

If you are interested in playing multi-player, I will be more than willing to play. The game runs pretty well on 56k dial-up if the host has cable.

[MarkShot]

Willard,

I ordered CWC (CD only) from Chips & Bits.

I have Win XP Pro and Win 98 SE installed. The Firaxis demos ran fine under both. I'll probably play under XP as that is my main environment.

The links which I found for information are:

* http://www.strategyplanet.com/waterloo/ ... ndex.shtml

* The Firaxis guide on their site with Reynold's Tactics.

* A good guide from Dark33

* A PDF reference card by Robin Pirez/Steve Barba

I see that there is a Prima strategy guide, but it is selling for $67 used. A bit much for something which sold for $19 new.

I'll PM you with my email address. Thanks for your generous offer of help.

[Willard]

Mark-

You already have more than enough to get you started.
Don't buy the strategy guide.
The game is not too complicated and I can show you some tried and true tactics (not gamey ones either!).
Some of the websites with dead links are the The SMG Annex and The Angle.
They used to be the two premier dl sites on the net.
SMG had a huge following as late as 2001. The problem was that SMG multiplayer (other than direct hosting) was supported by Mplayer that pretty much fell apart when GameSpy took over. There are a few holdout clans left. I havent played in almost 2 years and my SMG clan started to break up in summer of 2001. Its hard...if not impossible, to find online opponents now.

Back in the day, it was not uncommon to run 4 X 4 battles. Imagine playing HTTR with each player running their own battalion in the battle...that is what it was like!!!! We used to have battles where the CINC would not control any troops. The CINC would only give commands to subordinates who would issue all the commands to their respective troops. If the size of scenario/number of players allowed, we would have designated players handle the artillery only!!!! Depending on the scenario, this would last upto 4-6 hours of intensive game play. And of course it also depended upon the opponents---gamey opponents can wreck any online game.

Generally in SMG online you don't "flag" your opponent (i.e. encircle them and cause them to surrender) and you dont allow routed units to sit on victory points. Although if you turned the flank you could easily rout your opponent, some gamey Confed players used to double time in columns around Union players lines and cause them to surrender very quickly. This occured because the Confed troops marched faster and had more morale bars that allowed them to burn off morale and not suffer any major penalty versus the Union troops (most Union troops have 4 morale bars...the Rebs usually have 5-6...meaning you could double time a unit and only lose one morale bar but still have a 5v4 advantage).

When I played, at least, there used to be a "gentlemen's code" that was quite refreshing from the online nonsense you see now. We used to meet in chatrooms (either Mplayer or later GameSpy) where there was a community enforced respect. Senior members (officers) of your own clan or other rival clans (southern or northern depedning upon your inclinations) were saluted *S* when you joined the room and there was alot of "yes sir" "no sir" instead of cursing or smack talk. Better yet, you had all age groups---teenagers to men in 50s-60s playing a wargame (and several women players also!!).

Anyway I digress, when I get home I will send you a few emails...

[MarkShot]

I was pretty impressed by it looking at the demo:

* 3D map rendered
* Realtime game play
* Two-level AI command
* Orders/parameters some slight similarity to RDOA/HTTR

1997 ... no wonder why Sid Meier is recognized as such a design genious besides the whole Civilization series!

[MarkShot]

Willard,

Please check your PM. Thanks.

[Cap Mandrake]

MarkShot;

Nothing like a visit to Gettysburg to get the War Bewtween the States juices flowing eh? [:D] Nothing like standing on the crest of Little Round Top or right where the 20th Maine fought to get an appreciation of the battle.

Here are some links for Mods and custom maps and scenarios:

All sorts of maps (Shiloh, Yorktown, Chancellorsville etc etc) even one with ships ( "naval contemplation") and custom uniform art.

http://www.aphill.homestead.com/AOV.html

Materials for strategic recreation of the Seven Days Battles:

http://www.aovkershaw.homestead.com

I have some at home I think..."Fredricksburg"..."Red River Campaign". I'll check when I get home.

BTW...Willard pretty much got his historical meanderings right as I recall [:D]

[MarkShot]

Thanks for the links.

Well, we were only in Gettysburg one night and spent a good part of the first day driving there and the next day driving back. Our main purpose was to meet up with Paul and Dave of PG.

However, perhaps we'll plan a return trip with some more time for the future. Bil said that I should go down to Antietam as the battlefield is better preserved than Gettysburg which is more of a tourist attraction.