I now played a full game and a two material issues I haven't seen mentioned

[doomonyou]

Surface ships vs. Transports.

Due to the AI on several occasions I caught nearly unescorted tranports with surface ships. I can't seem to really kill them.

Example I caught eleven Japanese AP's and AK's with Two PCs near borneo with the Prince of Wales, the repulse and four DD's in daylight, fair weather at 22000 yards. Killed one PC and three Transports.

Since the transports are at least 10 knots slower and its daylight, how the hell do ANY of them manage to escape? It seems like the surface ai pounds the hell out of a few guys and lets the rest go. Have had cruisers to this too. Any competent captain at this time would in my estimation know that if he's spotted say four 8" or larger direct shell hits on a unarmored Transport to switch to a new target to cripple that one.

Also why does the hex speed seem not to match the ship speed. A ship going say 25 knots set to full speed should cover in a 24 hour period more hexes then I typcially seem them cover. Are the hexes much bigger than the 60 miles suggested in the manual?

[rogueusmc]

Ships rarely took a direct course....the zigzagged alot.

And the TF is only as fast as it's slowest member.

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: doomonyou

Surface ships vs. Transports.

Due to the AI on several occasions I caught nearly unescorted tranports with surface ships. I can't seem to really kill them.

Example I caught eleven Japanese AP's and AK's with Two PCs near borneo with the Prince of Wales, the repulse and four DD's in daylight, fair weather at 22000 yards. Killed one PC and three Transports.

Since the transports are at least 10 knots slower and its daylight, how the hell do ANY of them manage to escape? It seems like the surface ai pounds the hell out of a few guys and lets the rest go. Have had cruisers to this too. Any competent captain at this time would in my estimation know that if he's spotted say four 8" or larger direct shell hits on a unarmored Transport to switch to a new target to cripple that one.

Also why does the hex speed seem not to match the ship speed. A ship going say 25 knots set to full speed should cover in a 24 hour period more hexes then I typcially seem them cover. Are the hexes much bigger than the 60 miles suggested in the manual?

Just a thpught, but wouldnt the transport convoy scatter when your surface fleet hove in sight? A 10kn merchant man headed east and a 10kn headed west soon vanish from each other over the horizon. The six "hunters" can only chase so many helpless AKs at once, and you probably would not want the DD escorts headed east while the BBs go west. Also we may know exactly how many enemy ships are in the convoy, but 22000 yards vivibility is over the horizon, so your TF may only have seen 30% of the enemy TF.

[Zorfwaddle]

In Scen 15, I tried to escaped from a PI port with 7 unloaded AK's and they got engaged by a Japanese DD force (AFAIKR) and got slaughtered. I havent seen a reverse situation yet....

Regards,

[JohnK]

Someone playing a game as the Japanese and getting a historical Savo Island result (massacre of US cruisers, no damage to yourself, but not a scratch on 50+ enemy transports in the same hex) would probably be upset.

However, I agree that transport TFs with as little as one escort can often be invulnerable.

Your entire TF will engage one PC or MSW and not get a single hit on any of the transports, and then the action will be broken off; have seen this 3-4 times so far in one game and it's only through Dec. 27 1941.....(I'm Allies vs. Computer.)...I've seen it with "patrol/do not retire" attacks as well as retirement attacks, and I've seen it in daylight.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ian77

ORIGINAL: doomonyou

Surface ships vs. Transports.

Due to the AI on several occasions I caught nearly unescorted tranports with surface ships. I can't seem to really kill them.

Example I caught eleven Japanese AP's and AK's with Two PCs near borneo with the Prince of Wales, the repulse and four DD's in daylight, fair weather at 22000 yards. Killed one PC and three Transports.

Since the transports are at least 10 knots slower and its daylight, how the hell do ANY of them manage to escape? It seems like the surface ai pounds the hell out of a few guys and lets the rest go. Have had cruisers to this too. Any competent captain at this time would in my estimation know that if he's spotted say four 8" or larger direct shell hits on a unarmored Transport to switch to a new target to cripple that one.

Also why does the hex speed seem not to match the ship speed. A ship going say 25 knots set to full speed should cover in a 24 hour period more hexes then I typcially seem them cover. Are the hexes much bigger than the 60 miles suggested in the manual?

Just a thpught, but wouldnt the transport convoy scatter when your surface fleet hove in sight? A 10kn merchant man headed east and a 10kn headed west soon vanish from each other over the horizon. The six "hunters" can only chase so many helpless AKs at once, and you probably would not want the DD escorts headed east while the BBs go west. Also we may know exactly how many enemy ships are in the convoy, but 22000 yards vivibility is over the horizon, so your TF may only have seen 30% of the enemy TF.

If the convoy can scatter, so too should the combat TF be able to split off in pursuit and annihilate the separate parts.

[ian77]

[
If the convoy can scatter, so too should the combat TF be able to split off in pursuit and annihilate the separate parts.
[/quote]

But would 2 BBs and their 4 DD escorts scatter and head off over the horizon chasing fleeing AKs who they may not even have sighted, just a big blurry blip on the radar? I dont think sinking a third of an enemy TF is a poor result on the open sea. I am sure if he had caught them inshore or even better, unloading[:D] then the carnage would have been much higher.

[Xargun]

You guys also have to remember... warships only carry limited ammo and sometimes its a LONG way to a port for more... WOuld you shoot your last 20 shots at a stupid AK or save it incase you run into a real warship on the way home ? Imagine 2 BBs coming home from an excellent raid on enemy shipping - they tored through a bunch of AKs, TKs and even some APs and have 5 shots of ammo left for their main guns.... Then about 100 miles from their home port, they get jumped by a fast TF of IJN DDs.. At first the BBs go.. "Nothing to be afraid of.. Those little cans can't hurt us with their little guns... Kill them..." The Bs open fire and damage some of the DDs and miss the rest and 'click' they are out of ammo... Now they have taken a few hits from the DDs guns and suffered no real damage that is UNTIL the DDs get close and fire a couple dozen torps at them.. These torps will rip them apart - especially older BBs...

Part of the reason they don't lay waste to all enemy ships is the conservation of ammo. A warship will not fire its last round of ammo (talking combat round here) unless absolutely forced too - and sure as hell not at some unarmed ship... just because you don't know what you might run into on the way home....

I just think you have to take the game for what it is, try to get improvements and live with the rest... Just remember... there is NO WAY AKs or any other merchie can OUTRUN a warship.. So you don't kill them today... You have tomorrow... and the next day.. and the next...

Xargun

[ian77]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

You guys also have to remember... warships only carry limited ammo and sometimes its a LONG way to a port for more... WOuld you shoot your last 20 shots at a stupid AK or save it incase you run into a real warship on the way home ? Imagine 2 BBs coming home from an excellent raid on enemy shipping - they tored through a bunch of AKs, TKs and even some APs and have 5 shots of ammo left for their main guns.... Then about 100 miles from their home port, they get jumped by a fast TF of IJN DDs.. At first the BBs go.. "Nothing to be afraid of.. Those little cans can't hurt us with their little guns... Kill them..." The Bs open fire and damage some of the DDs and miss the rest and 'click' they are out of ammo... Now they have taken a few hits from the DDs guns and suffered no real damage that is UNTIL the DDs get close and fire a couple dozen torps at them.. These torps will rip them apart - especially older BBs...

Part of the reason they don't lay waste to all enemy ships is the conservation of ammo. A warship will not fire its last round of ammo (talking combat round here) unless absolutely forced too - and sure as hell not at some unarmed ship... just because you don't know what you might run into on the way home....

I just think you have to take the game for what it is, try to get improvements and live with the rest... Just remember... there is NO WAY AKs or any other merchie can OUTRUN a warship.. So you don't kill them today... You have tomorrow... and the next day.. and the next...

Xargun

TRUE... and yes there are one hell of a lot of tomorrows in this game, though not for the dutch units!

[MadDawg]

Something which I dont think is considered in an engagement is if the transport task force is unloading troops or supplies and thus are stationary targets.

Ive seen several examples where Ive have a large task force (BBs inlcuded) attack an unloading task force and only hit 2-3 out of 10 ships. The real annoying part is that those other transport ships continue to unload thier troops as if nothing had happened.

Dawg

[MadDawg]

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Part of the reason they don't lay waste to all enemy ships is the conservation of ammo. A warship will not fire its last round of ammo (talking combat round here) unless absolutely forced too - and sure as hell not at some unarmed ship... just because you don't know what you might run into on the way home....

Actually I usually dont have a problem with the amount of fire they give, just the fact that they tend to unload it all onto 2 or 3 ships.

If they unload the same amount of ammo over all spotted ships I think the overall feel of such a naval engagement would be much more realistic....for instance maybe only 1 heavily damaged out of 10 but 5-6 with light damage of which 2 were left burning, as oppose to 2-3 being sunk and thats it.

Dawg

[barbarrossa]

In my POW group intercept mission, I had good dispersion of fire at all enemy ships and with much greater accuracy from main battery fire. Making the comparison with surface action in UV -- I'm pleased that it's better in WiTP.

[mccavage]

I certainly agree with the ammo conservation theory and while it seems that firing algorithims may overconcentrate on escorting warships, the other issue as to why transport groups survive versus surface warships is that naval gunnery is at best, pretty inaccurate.

It takes a surprisingly large number of shells fired to sink even the average tub of an AK and from a distance, the firing vessel can't immediately determine when fatal damage has been inflicted so invariably the tendency is to keep shooting until the target is clearly sinking.

I love to know the hit % at Samar for the IJN, but even versus a handful of escorts with only harassing aircraft attacks, Kurita put out a pretty large expenditure of ammunition for meager results. I suspect the hit % for Scharnhorst & Gneisnau when they encountered a convoy in their early war raiding was equally awful.

[doktor1957]

I think the non-anihilation of transport convoy's is pretty realistic. IIRC, there were no cases in WWII of a convoy being completely wiped out, although PQ13 came close. So many factors come into play. Off the top of my head:
1) What is the commander's mind state? Is he worried about escorts, enemy air, subs? His fuel state? Does he want to get home and see his wife?

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: JohnK
However, I agree that transport TFs with as little as one escort can often be invulnerable.

Your entire TF will engage one PC or MSW and not get a single hit on any of the transports, and then the action will be broken off; have seen this 3-4 times so far in one game and it's only through Dec. 27 1941.....(I'm Allies vs. Computer.)...I've seen it with "patrol/do not retire" attacks as well as retirement attacks, and I've seen it in daylight.

This point kinda goes back to what I said before in another thread about sighting. I think individual surface actions should show SIGHTED ships only. If that PC or MSW is the only ship seen in the battle and the raiders jump on it? Well then I don't want to even SEE the transports. Heck you can even list it as such in the post battle report as sighted vs unsighted. ASSUMING as you complete the surface combat check that other surface ships don't see the AK's.

Just hypothetical and a wishlist item I know, but if it's able to be done it might alleviate a lot of the ire folks have about seeing a surface combat TF attack a transport TF full of troops and only kill one. If only two surface raiders and one transport are seen in the battle? Why not just show them on screen? Just a thought...

[Nikademus]

The issue of Surface combat TF's vs transport TF's (particularily lightly or undefended ones) is being looked at by the developers. No promises of course. [;)]

From a historical standpoint. The reason for the dearth of examples is quite simply because navies did what they could to ensure it didn't happen due to the potentially disasterous results that could incur. Certainly the question of how WATCHTOWER might have proceeded had Mikawa gone ahead and fullfilled his original objective (smashing the invasion transports) has been endlessly debated.

On the issue of ammo conservation, i would have to disagree with this logic. Catching an undefended transport fleet is the 'wet dream' of any admiral worth his salt. The support and transport of troops and supply is a large chunk of the reason why navies exist in the first place. Destroying warships is all fine and good (and has clouded the judgement of more than one commander) but the merchants and what they carry are the heart of any campaign and the fleet(s) exist to protect them and prevent disasters.

keep in mind too that the scenerio mussed about includes both anchored TF's as well as those at sea.

[JohnK]

ORIGINAL: doktor1957

I think the non-anihilation of transport convoy's is pretty realistic. IIRC, there were no cases in WWII of a convoy being completely wiped out, although PQ13 came close. So many factors come into play. Off the top of my head:

NOBODY is demanding that convoys be "annihilated."

What people are complaining about are repeated examples of TFs with 6+ warships encountering enemy tranport convoys escorted by 1-2 PCs or MSWs, and the ships only even FIRING at the PC or MSW, and none of the transports being damaged; even the convoy was involved in a landing operation at the time.

You can't even do as well as the old flush-deckers did at Balikpapan.....(4 US Flush-deckers vs. an anchored force escorted by ELEVEN assorted PCs/MSWs....)

Here are some Atlantic examples:

Scheer, BY ITSELF, against a convoy at sea that scatters, in the famous fight vs. Jervis Bay, ends up getting 5 of the transports...

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sank 16 ships of a convoy at sea over two days before a British BB showed up and they fled...

Hipper got 7 ships out of an unescorted convoy once...sailing alone.

[Toro]

From my perspective, I've sunk a number of transports in these situations. In fact, it seems those are the only ships I'm sinking (okay, I've deep-sixed a handful of PCs or MWs). But, I am sinking transports in these engagements...

[Capitaine]

While I've seen low sink rates in UV, in my only warship vs. transport action so far in WitP, it was one U.S. CL vs. 3 PC's and 4 AP's. The lone CL sank all three PC's and two of the AP's. I figured the escorts gave at least two of the transports the chance to escape this lone CL w/ such "mad skillz". [&o]

[doomonyou]

I see a lot of people have experienced this too.

In response to those who claim the "scatter" issue, I agree to a limited extent but in my example it would have been hideously easy for TF commander to send even just two DD rushing in to check it out while he hangs back and lands 12 and 14" shells on the ships he can see. Those two close in DD's would (being probably 20 knots faster than any transport) be able to run quite wild in there.

I would certainly in any 10+ ship convoy be surprsied by a total wipeout but my example should have resulted in 7+ ships sunk and the rest damaged with perhaps one unscathed survivor.